Month: November 2018

Social Media Part Deux: Doctoring in the Blog-o-sphere

Dr. Dana Corriel is known to some as the godmother of doctors on social media.  This all started with her personal blog, which she created for creative catharsis and to help inform patients on a larger scale than the 1:1 office visits.  She now manages a multiple facebook communities and has a presence on almost all social media platforms.  We discuss the hows and whys of being a doctor on social media with “one of the top 10 internists to follow on Twitter.” 

One of her tips: a consistent screen name.  She can be found as drcorriel on ALL PLATFORMS!  Website, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.   

She is the administrator and creator of 

https://doctorsonsocialmedia.com

https://www.facebook.com/groups/medicineconnect

https://www.facebook.com/groups/somedocs

 

 

Social Media Part Deux: Doctoring in the Blog-o-sphere

Dr. Dana Corriel is known to some as the godmother of doctors on social media.  This all started with her personal blog, which she created for creative catharsis and to help inform patients on a larger scale than the 1:1 office visits.  She now manages a multiple facebook communities and has a presence on almost all social media platforms.  We discuss the hows and whys of being a doctor on social media with “one of the top 10 internists to follow on Twitter.”

One of her tips: a consistent screen name.  She can be found as drcorriel on ALL PLATFORMS!  Website, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

She is the administrator and creator of

https://doctorsonsocialmedia.com

https://www.facebook.com/groups/medicineconnect

https://www.facebook.com/groups/somedocs

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

This is the transcript to the episode. This transcript was created by a talk to text application and the function of having this here is to improve the page search engine optimization. This transcript has not been proofread, so please listen to the episode and don’t read this. The information contained herein will inevitably contain inaccuracies that affect that quality of the information conveyed and the creator of this content will not be held liable for consequences of the use of the information herein.

Unknown Speaker  0:03
Welcome to the physicians guide to doctoring A Practical Guide for practicing physicians. We’re Dr. Bradley Block interviews experts in and out of medicine to find out everything we should have learned while we were memorizing Krebs cycle. The ideas expressed on this podcast are those of the interviewer and interviewee and do not represent those of their respective and lawyers.
Unknown Speaker  0:26
On today’s episode, we have Dr. Donna Correale spelled Da na. She can be found as Dr. Corey LO on all social media platforms including Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. This all started with a blog at Dr. Corey l calm and when she started blogging, it wasn’t even medical at the beginning. She’s a talented and prolific writer, and we discuss the ins and outs and advantages of blogging as a physician, the importance of having a social media presence and how she started a rapidly expanding Facebook community for him by doctors on social media called doctors on social media. Welcome back to the physicians guide to doctoring. On today’s episode we have Dr. Donna Corey L of Dr. Corey L. Calm among other social media platforms. She is the godmother of social media docs, she created a Facebook platform where physicians on social media can communicate with each other, and bounce ideas off each other, which serves to amplify our voices. But this wasn’t her first foray into social media. She’s actually a prolific blogger, and has a very active Twitter account. So Dr. Corey, l. Thank you so much for being on the show today. Sure. And thank you for having me. First, can you tell us a bit about your training?
Unknown Speaker  1:42
Yes. I was raised in I was born in Israel I was raised in in LA, right in the outskirts of LA and a place called walnut. I got my bachelor’s of science from UCLA in neuroscience and Then I went to medical school at Sackler at Tel Aviv University Sackler back in Israel where I was born, came back to New York to, to train in residency at Albert Einstein University Medical Center, Montefiore Medical Center, and finished up internal medicine there. I got my first job at Mount Sinai in New York City, I worked for the World Trade Center medical monitoring and treatment program. And shortly thereafter, at least five years later, I decided to stay home to the mother of my three children, my three boys, I became a mother during my internship year of residency, and that’s when I started to blog.
Unknown Speaker  2:46
And what were you blogging about at the time?
Unknown Speaker  2:48
That’s a great question. You know, I didn’t start out in a medical blog. Actually, I started out extremely creative. The three years that I took off four years of self discovery, there were years that I I sort of discovered things about myself that I never knew I had these talents. I started to love creating with my hands, I would entertain. I learned how to cook to bake to decorate to refinish vintage pieces and things like that. And my first blog was actually called snapshot of a lot of the day. I named it sort of out of the box just for fun. I thought it was a fun title. And I could sort of blog about everyday life. I basically had a blog when I was at home and it was called snapshot of a lot of day it was just about everyday life. And then when I went back to medicine after the three years off, I decided to start incorporating medical care. I saw I actually saw the connections that I was making behind the closed exam room door and I decided to take it out to the real world so that more patients could benefit from the exchanges that I had one on one I’m on a more virtual space and I’m in a bigger space. And that’s where I started to incorporate medicine into my blog.
Unknown Speaker  4:06
So if I’m understanding, and to me, this is also some of the idea behind why I have this podcast because I find myself saying the same things to patients over and over and over. And as a specialist, I think it would be beneficial to other people outside of my specialty to hear those things because they might learn something that they otherwise wouldn’t know where, for me, it doesn’t require me to do a lot of, you know, I don’t have to put together a PowerPoint presentation or do some research to just to be able to speak on a topic, because it’s the same, you know, sending the same thing over and over. So you’re saying, that’s what you’re doing for your patients because you end up telling them the same things over and over. Why not just make this more accessible online in a blog format so that you can resonate with more People at the same time is that which was?
Unknown Speaker  5:02
Absolutely. So that’s where it originally started that way. I said, Wow, like I was having these amazing connection as an internist with with my patients. And I said, Why don’t I have these same connections with more people like I’m spending, you know, my 1530 minutes one on one. And I’m using metaphors and things to explain concepts and people are like, Whoa, like, I never really understood because, for me, quality is very important in a patient visit. And it’s important for me to always have the patient understand and so I like to simplify concepts. I like to make concepts fun to learn. So originally, that’s where I turned to my blog is I thought I would kind of simplify concepts, but the blog definitely evolved into my writing about healthcare, for example, I think it’s the same sort of thing. It’s analogous and that I’m still simplifying healthcare like I’m taking concepts that The general public may not know about. So for example, pre authorizations right, we get on the phone, and we have to fight for our patients. And there’s a lot of little things that patients don’t know are happening in the background. And so I wrote about it, like I wrote a story about it. And I think that that’s very important as well, when you’re blogging and when you’re sort of when you’re talking about healthcare is to let patients know what’s going on behind the scenes that they may not know about, because it’s our voices that can change healthcare. And so the blog slowly evolved from first I was just basically speaking to patients about illnesses and diseases and sort of sharing work that was already published. And then at some point, I started creating my own stories and my own commentaries and op ads and things like that.
Unknown Speaker  6:56
Yeah, that’s what I found about a lot of your content is that it’s
Unknown Speaker  7:02
First, like there’s always a story, right to help to ground it. And it’s not always something technical. But you know, I find it to be personal in some ways, like it seems like these are the stories are coming from emotional places.
Unknown Speaker  7:22
Absolutely. I think that that’s what appeals to readers is when you write from a personal place, and it’s almost like a vulnerable place, we had discussed this offline. The the topic of vulnerability. I definitely open up a lot on the blog about certain issues. I mean, I definitely still, it’s important for me to still stay private. Even though I blog and I am present on all the social platforms. It is important to still hold on to things that you consider private but at the same time, I do like to dissect life events and things that are That bother me and health care and even happy moments in healthcare. But like for example, I’m a very emotional person. So I wrote about emotions I call it my story. Emotions aren’t just baggage there Louis Vuitton carry on, right? Because, first of all it appeal to the reader to read that to see that title. But secondly, to open up and tell people why being emotional is either good or bad is just very interesting. And when you’re sort of comparing it to things that are day to day like a Louis Vuitton carry on, it just makes it more interesting. And again, I write about sometimes I do write about illnesses and diseases and patient physician relationships, but I always relate it to other things. So like another example is a recent story that I wrote called embracing rejection, the beetle said Go go go when my counselor said no, no, no, and it was about a personal story of my counselor in high school, telling me not to apply to university that I really wanted to Go to because he said I wouldn’t get in. And I don’t really know why he said that. But I didn’t listen to him and I applied and I made it in. And the story kind of goes into like, why why would somebody tell you not to do something? First of all, because I got it. But secondly, because what is wrong with trying even if you’re going to be rejected, rejection is such a beautiful thing that you need to embrace because it makes us appreciate it when we actually do earn something we can always be told Yes, right. We need to appreciate being told Yes. When we are also told no. So these are sort of the kind of stories that I write about that makes people it makes it interesting to readers.
Unknown Speaker  9:40
And what about making it interesting to yourself? I mean, obviously, if you’re writing about it, something you find interesting, but what I mean more is like, how have you found this helps you to be a more fulfilled person?
Unknown Speaker  9:53
Oh, I knew exactly what you meant. And I agree. I think this helps me tremendously. fact, I first took it up because it was so it was so therapeutic for me that I really didn’t care if people were going to read and I think that’s part of what makes me succeed. I always tell my readers and I tell people in the group and everything that if tomorrow, everything worked to be taken away from me, I would still be a happy person. I really would I just I love. I love life. I’m an optimist. I love looking at the glass half full I love appreciating the other half of the glass. I don’t need people to read it and to like it, I need to like it. I need to feel good about myself. So when I create a story, I mean I’m also happen to be a perfectionist psyche, I always think that there’s a, you know, that I can make it better. And so I go back and redo it and redo it and redo it until I finally I’m like, Okay, now I’m going to publish it. And even then I go back sometimes and change it around, but I’ll put a story out there and it’ll just make me feel good because I’ve said what I wanted to say. And it’s just, it’s therapeutic. Um, I do really love the feedback though I love when people share and people comments and people sort of tell me that my stories have helped them to stay strong, but, but I don’t necessarily write for that I write because I really enjoy doing it. And because it’s therapeutic for me.
Unknown Speaker  11:23
Well, one thing that we were also talking about before the show is the saying every time you say yes to one thing, you’re saying no to something else. And so, you know, clearly writing this, you enjoy it. It’s a creative outlet. It makes you It sounds like it’s bubbling inside of you and just getting it down on paper is, is an enjoyable experience and helps you to be a more well rounded person. But there is a downside to it. Because you’re a mother of three. You’re a physician. You have this active social media presence so that when you decided to start doing it, what did you decide? Or what turned into the sacrifice that you made in order to find the time to do the crew? Sorry, not find the time. Create the time to do this?
Unknown Speaker  12:17
Yeah, absolutely. It takes up a lot of time and eats up your time. And so that’s the sacrifice that I make. I mean, I personally work a part time schedule. I definitely work more than the hours that I commit because I’m an internist and I have charting and all that but I worked. When I went back into medicine from my time off, I went back to a part time position in internal medicine because I wanted to allow myself the time to still do these kinds of things. I have this like artistic pull that I needed to satisfy, but but it’s still a sacrifice. So I try not to let it get in the way of mothering. But when push comes to shove this tape My time. That being said, it happens to truly be. And I know it sounds cliche, but this happens to be my passion. So I love to do it. I wake up and I think like, what am I going to write, I take showers and I come out of the shower and I have to go grab my phone and write in my notes section in the like three ideas I had while showering. It just really helps me to be a better person. And I honestly and I’ve written about this. I feel like it makes us better physicians. I feel like it helps us connect with patients better. It helps us think outside the box. It helps us be creative. It helps to innovate, it helps to lead others to be role models for others. And so while I’m sacrificing a lot with with my writing, and all the time that I spend on the social media platforms, it also helps to, to better myself. So it’s almost like um, it’s like giving me time. It’s like me, too. time when I write these things
Unknown Speaker  14:02
so it’s a way for you to for you to sequester time for yourself okay, I’ve decided to dedicate this much time to the blog, which then also translates to Donna time. This is time for Donna. This is this is not for my patients this is I mean it has benefits to your patients. But this is this is this and I think it’s very easy for us to let that go with all of our other obligations. Oh, I shouldn’t it’s selfish. I should be spending this time with my family Oh, I shouldn’t should be spending this time with my patients. Oh, I shouldn’t die. You know, and then you you you sacrifice everything and there’s nothing less yourself and then you end up not being as much of a person or a complete person as you can be for them when you are with.
Unknown Speaker  14:51
So it’s my pastime so like it’s literally like because I love it. Like I’m not forcing myself to write and it’s annoying to me like all I have to write You know, I never think that because I love it. And I also don’t, I don’t put the pressures that maybe others. I don’t know if others do this, but I don’t put the pressures of, well, I have to write a blog post now. I really don’t because I don’t feel that way. I feel like when it becomes that, I won’t appreciate it anymore. So I don’t have any of those pressures on it. I know that I have the time to do it. And honestly, because I love it so much. It doesn’t feel like work to me, it just feels completely like a natural thing to do. And it gives me pleasure. I love to do it.
Unknown Speaker  15:35
But to be clear, it is a financial sacrifice because this is time that because we because you’re working part time, this is time that you could be seeing more patients, and there are always more patients that but at the same time, like you said you feel like it makes you a better doctor, to the patients when you are seeing all so it’s a financial sacrifice. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker  15:58
it’s it’s a very, very much of a financial sacrifice that’s 100% of you know, it sucks my time it actually like takes time. That being said, it’s a great point to touch on because I think something that I teach the so many docs community I know we’re going to talk about this so many docs community, but something that I really say is just how many doors have opened. Thanks to everything that I’m doing. It’s just incredible. So while I sort of did this because I loved it and did this because it was my pastime and my hobby and my passion. It has also led to such incredible things and that’s why I sort of decided at one point to open it up and to like, push other doctors to do this. The doctors that are interested so so like the so many docs community before we get to that,
Unknown Speaker  16:48
what about the advantages to your practice? They go their patients that find you through the blog, or they’re referring physicians that find you through the blog. Have you had other and again, this is not We’re going to talk about your other social media platforms. Blogging is not your only social media platform. You’re very prolific in other areas as well. But of all of your different social media platforms. Can you talk about concrete advantages that have come like speaking engagement or increased patient volume? Or
Unknown Speaker  17:19
if this were a multiple choice? test, a question, I would say all of the above. So literally, everything I mean, from being quoted in big media, you know, journal articles and journals. I mean, the big gastroenterology publication reached out to me to talk about again, this is more of the so many docs and we’ll talk about that in a second. But, I mean, I’ve been asked to be guest faculty at one of one of the Harvard conferences that took place last April and loved it. I’ve been invited back in 2019. I’m conducting a roundtable next month at Harvard at one of the conferences for women leaders. I’ve been asked to speak at a Grand Cayman conference for female physician wellness. And, and you know, and and some of these are paid positions. I’ve been, you know bestowed some some honors from for example, medical economics named me the top 10, one of the top 10 internists to follow on Twitter. I’ve had tons of things open up I’ve also made incredible connections I had a health care in my county we have I created this healthcare professional organization and group with some of the other female health care providers in the area. And we had a meeting the other day in my house and we were like going around just kind of talking and it was amazing how I got to know some of these people based on my platform. So like each person who’s got any became a joke going around the circle that people got to know me because of my platform. One person saw my blog and she was super curious. And she was she thought to herself, like I should write to another person said that she, you know, had seen my tweets. So it also really connects and it helps to network and I can’t even begin to tell you how many physicians I’ve connected with across the United States and even the world. And it’s just, it’s just incredible. So this has this is multi level this, this has benefits on many levels.
Unknown Speaker  19:29
So let’s talk about so many docs, then this is I have to say I am very grateful for the Sony Doc’s Facebook group because I have found people to be on this podcast and I have found listeners for this podcast on this group. So my podcast would probably at this point, just consist of my friends and family who is that being said, Our experts, right my first my first guest was my brother who’s a PhD in health. See from Harvard and worked on Obamacare. So he’s definitely he’s now he’s a professor of health policy at a medical school. So they’re definitely experts, but it was able to rapidly expand beyond my circle, because because of your group, so again, I am very, very grateful for so many docs Facebook group. So let’s just talk about that. What inspired you to start it and what has it been doing and why why should more physicians be joining? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker  20:29
so I mean, I saw the amazing benefits of my own efforts. And it was a very lonely effort because nobody was doing it. When I was doing it. I was definitely looked at as doing something that wasn’t traditional. I had interesting comments come to me, even from family and friends. What are you doing? physicians don’t do this, this and it really bothered me because I be part of all these like Facebook groups, for example, and none of them had visited in them, and if anything, I think people found it odd that I was a physician and I was in groups, like why I mean, it was just not an accepted thing. And I felt like there was something lacking there. And I also felt like, there were so many benefits to what I was doing. I mean, I was feeling great. I was fulfilling a passion. I was seeing so many the open the doors opening that I described earlier, that I said, Why don’t other doctors do it? Right. I mean, I’m doing it and I’m an internist. But there’s people that are experts on everything. I mean, people that know a lot about headaches, and there’s people that know a lot about I mean, Botox, right. There’s people that know a lot about orthopedic surgery. And at some point, I can talk
Unknown Speaker  21:45
a lot about postnatal,
Unknown Speaker  21:46
right? Yeah, and I’m sure there would be an audience for that. But I said, that lonely process, that lonely road that I felt on my journey, other doctors are probably feeling it too and They’re probably not even realizing how amazing it is to actually blog and they maybe they think it’s not okay. So I said, I’m going to create a group so that we can all do this together. And we can almost mimic these other Facebook groups of all of these bloggers and Pinterest groups and this and that, and there isn’t really one for physicians, I’m going to make it okay for physicians to do this. And that’s where I decided let me do doctors on social media. And then I started like, kind of asked the group like, what hashtags should we use and, you know, I kind of use the rules that I use for myself with branding, which we could talk about, you know, spend a whole podcast talking about but keeping that hashtag, really short and kind of catchy and fun, and that’s where so many docs was created. So, so me being short for social media, so many docs, social media doctor, so for anyone who’s looking to use social media to expand either their business to make changes to healthcare to beat burnout like I did. You can really use social media for so many different reasons. And so many docs was born.
Unknown Speaker  23:10
And you can just join the group and lurk and learn. Right? You join the group, and you just reading the other posts to see what’s out there. Because if you haven’t figured out what you want your outlet to be on social media, or, you know, or whether you’ve disturbed you’re wavering on having a social media presence, or you’ve just started a page, you don’t know how to get it started. You want a blog, but you don’t know the nuts and bolts of it. You have a community of physicians and human beings are tribal. We’re, we’re genetically tribal by nature. So you find your tribe, and you help your tribe and you protect your tribe and physicians are a tribe, right? And so we have a tendency to help each other, expecting nothing in return. So if you go on there, and you asked For a piece of advice, how do I get started? You know, what do people think about this topic, you are going to get a lot of feedback. And and you know, a lot of it is going to be very helpful in terms of getting you started and getting you motivated. Because when you see what other people are doing out there, that’s also very motivating, like look at what all this great content that all these people have put out there. And it can also help you find your niche. So there’s so many reasons to to join that community so
Unknown Speaker  24:29
that I agree and I think it’s been an extremely supportive community. And so, you know, I really haven’t seen any fights break out obviously, you know, it’s Facebook people are faceless there and so it’s sometimes easy in other you know, in other Facebook groups, I’ve noticed people will easily you know, start name calling and be want to get in a fight because it’s not face to face. It’s not like that on so many docs. We’re all respectful. We’re all physicians. There is so much there’s are so many productive posts that are shared. I personally do try and stay active there as the admin of the group. I try and stimulate conversation I try and post interest not only interesting posts, but but posts that get involvement. So even just sharing URLs like sharing the, the handles right, the Twitter handles of the group members. That helps because it gets connections, it gets people to like each other’s or follow each other’s Twitter, Twitter accounts, and it helps us grow
Unknown Speaker  25:36
and it makes our voices louder. I think it’s so important because you see celebrities making recommendations for people’s health, like when it’s Paltrow and goobers they’re talking about the healing power of crystals, and they have millions of followers and they’re spreading misinformation and that’s a dangerous expert.
Unknown Speaker  25:56
That’s that’s we’re worried right.
Unknown Speaker  25:58
And I think people are worried about getting sued. Right, they’re worried about getting sued. And so you know what people have thrown that comment out in social media, what do I do? What do I put on my blog or my Twitter account to make a disclaimer to me, we’re not lawyers, some of us are actually there. There are a couple of lawyer physicians out there. Um, I mean, you don’t have them on retainer, but you know what I mean, like, just bouncing friendly advice around so that we can be and then you see other people are doing it. So you can be less afraid to do it, because you’re not the one doctor who’s putting medical. I mean, you can’t make a HIPAA violations. You can put information out there. And that’s your thing. You put it in a way that your patients can consume it. And then we become part of the conversation again, rather than just, you know, complaining to each other in the lunchroom about you know, the healing power of crystals. Most of my patients brought in their crystals again, and they wanted to know what the dose should be. Oh, gosh,
Unknown Speaker  26:50
yeah, that’s, that’s also part of what what why I initially started this is because I, I saw the pseudoscience out there and it was really bothered me not only the pseudoscience actually but even things like physician reviews, I saw someone that I knew a colleague of mine reviewed poorly not even reviewed, it was just a, an ugly post that was written about him on a Facebook group. And it was a general, like community Facebook group. And I was appalled because I said to myself, he doesn’t even know that the post is there, that he’s now been bad mouth to like thousands of community members. And it’s not true. And he can’t defend himself, even if he knew was there. He can’t really break hip but to like, give his side of the story and it was just all in all a bad situation. And that was actually the first healthcare article that I wrote. It was I submitted it to Kevin MD, and I had it published on his site and this was years ago and I loved it. I just felt really good to put my thoughts into words. So yeah, it’s changing healthcare by writing about it so that people know a little bit more what is happening from our point of view from the physician point of view, and it’s also drowning out, drowning out pseudoscience. But I think legalities are important. I think that it’s sad that physicians have to be careful, but we do because we are. You know, we’re the leaders in healthcare. And so what we say really matters. And so we have to really be careful about not giving out any specific information and sort of keep the generalities and, and that’s really important, I think,
Unknown Speaker  28:33
right, not giving specific medical advice to someone over you’re not their Twitter doctor. So if someone texts you a picture of a rash you shouldn’t respond on on social media, but at the same time, personally, I think it’s ridiculous that I have to start each episode when I interview a physician who’s actually giving some medical information. We just had one recently about about back pain, that you know what, I’m not your doctor, and I’m not giving you medical advice right now the fact that I have to say that is a little ridiculous they do. I’m not their doctor. But still, I have to say that in order to
Unknown Speaker  29:08
die, that’s absolutely ridiculous. And honestly, I could talk about this for hours because that’s something that really irks me is just the like, the legal issues in medicine and the fact that we, you know, just just the need for tort reform and the fact that we have to not constantly watch our back and not be able and I think it’s actually hurting healthcare tremendously. It’s one of the biggest problems in healthcare today. But anyway, that’s for another episode.
Unknown Speaker  29:36
It’s actually Episode Two. If you want to get involved in advocacy, I interviewed someone about some of the easy ways without devoting much time that you can be an effective advocate for yourself because you know what, the trial the trial lawyers have a huge lobby. And so their interest is, they say protecting their patients, but they do they make a lot of money quote, protecting the patients from from us. I mean, I think there’s definitely conflict. I
Unknown Speaker  30:03
think patients do absolutely need protection. I mean, but like it’s gone the other way there. Yeah, there’s just way too much legalities to the point where we’re all sort of just watching our backs non stop. And that’s not where you want your doctor to be. Right? You want your doctor to just straight out, like, tell you how it is and treat you and you don’t want him to have to even like, you don’t have to want him to spend five minutes out of the 10 minutes. He’s with you, right, talking about all the possibilities just to you know, CYA to cover your ass. Excuse my language. So, you know, those are important things. And I think that, again, that’s something that is that is important to blog about to tweet about is health care and health issues like legalities and healthcare. I think we can definitely make a difference in the world if we take to blogging and to all the social media platforms and we We can certainly make a difference in the world in that way.
Unknown Speaker  31:03
So let’s, let’s. That’s an excellent segue. So now one of our listeners has been inspired to start a blog. How do they do it? Give us a basic intro some of the nuts and bolts, which was web hosting and WordPress and what are the some of those words mean? How do you you’ve got your laptop sitting in front of you. You’ve written something on word, right? How do you start a blog?
Unknown Speaker  31:27
Okay, so this is off the top of my head. Um, so first and foremost, you gotta pick a niche. If you want. I did not pick a niche I wanted to just write so I write about my family and medicine all in the same blog. But you if you really have a niche, it’s easier if you know that you are a neurologist and you want to talk about headaches, then that’s your niche. Then you would want to find a name you would want to brand yourself and you’d want to brand yourself with a name that you would keep consistent in your blog name and in all of your social media platforms. So doing that requires some investigating and some research because you want you want the website to first of all be available right? So you have to always go to the internet and look up the different names that you’re interested in. And the name that you would want to pick has to be relatively easy to say it has to roll off the tongue it has to sound good. It has to be easy to pronounce. I usually tell people don’t
Unknown Speaker  32:33
don’t choose words that are difficult to spell.
Unknown Speaker  32:38
There may be specifics that are specific to you I always use my own example I’m Dr. Corey yell. And I’m not Dr. Donna coil for example, because I spell my name DNA and it looks like Dana so I didn’t want people calling me Dana or hell non stop. So, those are specific considerations that could be like particular to you. So you know, you also have to consider your Media handles so if you’re going to pick a blog blog name, you’re probably going to eventually start different social media handles start different accounts on the social media platforms that are in existence so I’m Dr. Corey gal. I have a Facebook Twitter Pinterest and Instagram account. They’re all Dr. Corey l to it’s easier for your followers to find you across the different platforms. You wouldn’t want to be Dr. Donna Corey all on one platform and then Dr. Corey Allen, another one and then dr. D. Korea and another one. You want consistency. So that’s another thing I would do and then you’re ready to start your blog once you find your name. And so you I mean, I do it on WordPress. Some people ask Should I do WordPress, com or wordpress.org. I long time ago learned that wordpress.org was smarter right off the bat. It’s not easier to use it. It’s actually harder to use because you’re basically controlling everything and building Everything from scratch, but, but it gives you the freedom to then do with it what you want you own it, as opposed to WordPress com. Um, and you need a host hosting like a hosting company. So I use Host Gator but you know there’s others out there like GoDaddy and things like that. And then you basically you start you just right you have to get all kinds of apps installed into your the back end of your blog, which can be extremely complicated. I did it on my own for the most parts, and most people can do it on their own but I as we’re very busy physician, sometimes it may work out financially to get somebody to, you know, to do it for you. It literally it just depends on time, and finances. Those are the two rate limiting factors with actually running the blog
Unknown Speaker  34:55
and the economics seem pretty straightforward because you know about how much you make per hour seeing Patience and if it takes you a bunch of time to sort out some of this stuff, then your time is probably better spent seeing patients and then outsourcing rather than struggling and struggling and struggling doing a lot of it
Unknown Speaker  35:13
yeah I agree completely I agree completely and by the way yet another thing we didn’t mention when you blog cuz I’m thinking of the back end is you can also you can make money by blogging because we were talking about all the time that you spend doing all of this blogging can actually give bring you money, you know, whether it’s advertisements that you insert inside which, you know, there are ethical considerations to consider as a physician. I’m not saying to like endorse a medication but like so you know, little ads that pop up on AdSense and such things. You can make money that way you can make money with sponsors that want to be affiliated and you can make money many different ways. And have you been approached by pharmaceutical companies to put ads for drugs on our
Unknown Speaker  35:57
blog, no
Unknown Speaker  35:59
wonder if that’s Right. Oh,
Unknown Speaker  36:01
I’m sure. I’m sure. No, I have not. And again, I am extremely careful with legalities and with you know, I want to still say stay true to who I really am and what I believe in. And so I’ll put disclaimers if I need to. Yeah, I mean, I really pay particular attention to like the statements that I make, and I want to make sure that nobody can misinterpret although again, nowadays. Anyone can say that you said anything. And it’s just unfortunate.
Unknown Speaker  36:36
This This episode of physicians guide to doctoring brought to you by liberty.
Unknown Speaker  36:42
Really not? Completely
Unknown Speaker  36:44
generic, right, the cheap
Unknown Speaker  36:50
Yeah, so. So that’s what you do. And then you start blogging. What’s really cool about blogging is that you can blog at your own pace. So you Have to blow. I mean, some people say like, makeup, sort of make a schedule and stick to it. But you don’t have to. I mean, there’s there’s weeks where I’m tired, there’s weeks where, you know, I really value traveling, there’s weeks where I’m, you know, a few days where I’ll take off the road traveling, it’s okay to be gone. Um, it’s, it’s up to you again, it just depends on your endpoint and what you’re trying to achieve. If, if you’re looking to be, you know, tomorrow’s mega star, you’re probably not going to make it by blogging unless you have something like spectacular to share with the world that like nobody knows about. But most of us are just regular people that are, you know, going to work in and out of work and we’re all parenting or we’re all kind of living with our own issues. And, you know, blogging is just a really cool therapeutic way to put yourself out there and to talk about issues that are interesting to you. Have you marketed your blog at all, no meaning have I paid to like to have it advertised.
Unknown Speaker  38:02
Yeah, I mean aside from mean I’d say yes you created this amazing Facebook group which in and of itself is marketing on top of just creating this what became a self sustaining community. But but something that you would have done just to put more eyeballs on your nose so
Unknown Speaker  38:22
I have not if you Okay, that’s a great question great question. Marketing is so huge now. No, I have not put money into marketing my blog and I’m actually proud of that now that you asked me that no, not a single penny as far as I can remember. No, I do not put financial marketing into place with my blog or my social media platforms. I love to talk about them and to to engage on social media and that is marketing but it’s not for money. So and that and that kind of limits you right because Facebook I have a Facebook page which is limited. I have At this point, I don’t know how many 18 1900 followers and yet my followers don’t see my work because Facebook wants my money they want Yeah,
Unknown Speaker  39:08
right. They want to change their algorithm looking for people totally, to spend more wisely.
Unknown Speaker  39:14
And by the way, that’s what we talked about in so many docs is how do we beat this algorithm? Right? Because you’ve got like this group of 1900 plus physicians that are gathered in this like secret Facebook groups, physician only. And we’re trying to beat these like algorithms. So we’re putting all our brains together and saying, how do we, you know, what kind of ways can we find to get our work scene? So I do market not financially, I market by just sharing, you know, tweeting. If I tweet about an article that I just wrote, then I get it retweeted by people that really liked it, or I have ways of like, embedding the tweet icon into my blog, and people can sort of tweet cool saying that I have from my stories. Um, there’s little things like that, that I’ve learned along the way that can help to market myself by not paying.
Unknown Speaker  40:10
You create connections.
Unknown Speaker  40:11
Exactly. And network.
Unknown Speaker  40:12
So what platforms let’s let’s do some of that now. What platforms are you on? And where can people find you?
Unknown Speaker  40:19
So I am Dr. Corey l everywhere Dr. CORR. So Dr. GLORIA And I’m on. I’m on Instagram. I love taking iPhone photos. I call myself I it’s half of a joke, but it’s not. I’m an iPhone photographer. So I love taking really cool photos I just wrote on my blog 13 tips on taking fabulous iPhone photos. So my wife just got a new phone and it’s got the portrait mode. Love the portrait mode.
Unknown Speaker  40:47
Oh my god, the picture she takes of our two boys. Amazing. Hey,
Unknown Speaker  40:52
exactly. So portraits amazing, but there’s also just really cool ways of I give some tips about angles and different things you can do. I love to edit. So Instagram, Twitter, I’m close. I’m somewhere around the 2800 followers, which is amazing to some people but to other people have hundreds of thousands of followers. It’s it’s not that great. But the bottom line is I love to tweet, I love to engage with people on Twitter. Like I said medical economics gave me that honor, which was so nice. In three months, I was able to garner so many followers and it wasn’t hard. And on my blog, you can find Twitter tips, 14 Twitter tips to how to tweet and how to engage with other physicians and other and patients. So I’m on Twitter, Instagram, Pinterest. LinkedIn is a huge one lately that I’ve been extremely active on Facebook. Ah, yeah. And they’re all different. Like you could literally do a podcast on each and every one of those platforms, how to use it and what kind of benefits do they provide for your whatever it is that you’ve seen? Seek to gain. Well, I think you’ve just obligated yourself to do another episode. I’d be happy to come on another time in the future.
Unknown Speaker  42:06
Well, is there anything else that you want to discuss today that you think that we may have missed?
Unknown Speaker  42:12
I think we’ve said plenty. I think I’ve said plenty,
Unknown Speaker  42:14
very comprehensive episode. I really appreciate you creating the group which has allowed me to proliferate and, and making a stand for physicians and our patients and really putting yourself out there. So I appreciate everything that you’re doing. Your patients, appreciate it. You’re the other doctors appreciate it. And thank you again for taking the time
Unknown Speaker  42:37
to talk to me today.
Unknown Speaker  42:38
You’re welcome. And thank you so much for
Unknown Speaker  42:40
all the compliments. I appreciate it. It’s been a pleasure.
Unknown Speaker  42:44
That was Dr. Bradley Block at the physicians guide to doctoring. Find all previous episodes on iTunes, Stitcher, Google podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and write us a review. You can also visit us on facebook@facebook.com slash physicians guide to die During if you are interested in being a guest or have a question for a prior guest, send a message or post a comment.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai

How Physicians Should Buy Their Homes with Dr. Moves

Dr. Ramey had a pretty negative experience buying his first home as a med student, so he took matters into his own hands.  His wife got her real estate license, he got his, and how he helps med students, residents, and attendings around the country buy homes.  He walks us through the entire process from tip to tail, and we discuss for whom a physician loan would be appropriate, the advantages and disadvantages of such a loan, as well as the other types of loans available.

He also has an extremely comprehensive website with sources for physician loans as well as ways to earn extra income as a physician.

https://drmoves.com/

How Physicians Should Buy Their Homes with Dr. Moves

Dr. Ramey had a pretty negative experience buying his first home as a med student, so he took matters into his own hands.  His wife got her real estate license, he got his, and how he helps med students, residents, and attendings around the country buy homes.  He walks us through the entire process from tip to tail, and we discuss for whom a physician loan would be appropriate, the advantages and disadvantages of such a loan, as well as the other types of loans available.

He also has an extremely comprehensive website with sources for physician loans as well as ways to earn extra income as a physician.

https://drmoves.com/

 

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Disclaimer: This is the transcript to the episode. This transcript was created by a talk to text application and the function of having this here is to improve the page search engine optimization. This transcript has not been proofread, so please listen to the episode and don’t read this. The information contained herein will inevitably contain inaccuracies that affect that quality of the information conveyed and the creator of this content will not be held liable for consequences of the use of the information herein.

Welcome to the physicians guide to doctoring A Practical Guide for practicing physicians were Dr. Bradley Block interviews experts in and out of medicine to find out everything we should have learned while we were memorizing Krebs cycle. The ideas expressed on this podcast are those of the interviewer and interviewee and do not represent those of their respective employers.
On today’s episode, we interviewed dr. john Raimi, a fellowship trained allergist in Charleston, South Carolina, and the creator of Dr. Moves calm, that’s Dr. moves, and I know what you’re thinking, the doctor of dance moves, okay, that’s probably not what you were thinking. That’s what I was thinking. But Doctor moves helps doctors to move. He and his wife are real estate agents who own healthy real tea calm and he walks us through why you may or may not want to buy a home as a resident, how to do it, and if you don’t buy one, then how to buy one as a new attending. We discuss what doctor loans are and why you may Want to utilize them and then we walked through the entire process from finding a real estate agent to closing costs. And we really just scratched the surface and the offers much more detail on his website again, Dr. Moves calm. He also has useful information on real estate investment and other revenue streams for physicians like being a medical reviewer, expert witness medical surveys telemedicine and locums jobs. Welcome back to the physicians guide to doctoring On today’s episode we have dr. john Raimi of Dr. Moves calm he has a fantastic website that gives all sorts of information to physicians about finding a real estate agent finding a home earning extra income through either real estate or medical surveys. Becoming a medical reviewer. Really He has lots of different information is a wealth of information for for physicians, but today we’re going to focus on buying a home so if you’re a physician, who are using became a physician because you recently matched or you’ve finishing residency, you’re about to become an attending, you know, where you’re going to living for a while, and you’re thinking of buying a home. As a physician, you might have some other obstacles, like your loans that other people don’t. And there might be some more resources available to you that aren’t available to other people like a physician specific loan. And so Dr. Raimi has some particular expertise in in this area for a whole host of reasons. So first of all, Dr. Amy, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
Thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be on with you tonight.
So I think your real estate experience first started with your experience as starting I think it was you’re starting your residency and you were looking your first home. So can you walk us through what happened there?
Yeah, I was actually getting ready to start medical school. So my For my fiance at the birth, wanting to buy a house and like most medical, he didn’t have any money we had just graduated from college. And so we went to look for houses with my law. So first suggestion I have is don’t go look for out in law that wasn’t a very good experience. So we were actually staying at a resort. And the closest real estate office was a resort real estate office. The second mistake we made was finding a realtor who was used to selling million dollar properties, which we were not looking for at the time. So took us out for the day and we were looking in the hundred thousand dollar range at that time. We actually found the house that we really liked and just after one day of looking and so the realtor takes us back to our office and she goes into a spill saying hey, listen, this is a sell seller’s market. If you don’t put an offer on this house today, you’re probably gonna lose it. You need to do some quick. And I was very nervous, you know, being my first house on the house, I, you know, I wanted to call my parents and get some advice from them. And my parents kind of called, they said, Hey, john, don’t you really want to think about this every night? I don’t think you should rush into this. And so I agree. I agreed with my wife in a big hurry to do this. So I walked back into the room with the real estate agent, my in laws, and told him I said, Listen, I want to think about this. I want to make sure this is a good decision for the realtor got really upset with me and said, you were going to lose his house tonight. This is a terrible decision and she stomped out of the room. The next person got upset with me with my mother in law, she stopped out of the room. And my fiance, Tom was crying. You know, it was just a bad real estate experience. And from that experience, my wife and I talked about it several years later, and we’re just like, man, we could done such a better job ourselves and it inspired us to get it are both of us to get our real estate license?
So you got a real estate license while you were a medical student?
No, no, it was actually after I finished up all my training, I got mine. My wife got hers during my fellowship. And so she got it for me. And so she was able actually to help us by our This was our third house by that time when we moved to our my final job as an attending your third house.
Yes. So the first house ended up happening during at the beginning of medical school.
Well, what ended up happening that house that we were going to buy, we didn’t buy and we decided to rent instead. So we ended up renting a townhouse for the first time
and said, Hey, we’d like to buy this. And
that is the end of my second year of med school and sold it two years later for a profit and then went on to residency bought a house there and ended up breaking even on that one and then during fellowship, bought another house and ended up making a good profit on that house. And that was during the time my wife got her real estate license. It was actually our fourth house that we ended up using her as the realtor.
So you’re buying and selling these houses, you’re not holding them as
rental properties. Not at that point we weren’t and, you know, that’s, you know, one piece of I said, you know, our make to residents or attendings is you know, look at, you know, the property you’re buying, it may be a good rental property long term, and that’s not something I was looking at at that point in my career.
Yeah, I actually when I was a resident, I bought a, I bought an apartment, and my parents helped me to finance it. Because the first apartment that I lived in in Washington wasn’t in the best area. So when I would leave at 530 in the morning to go to my rotations, they were still hookers outside. So my goodness, they, they helped me to put a down payment on on a place, you know, but I was a resident from 2006 to 2011. So possibly the worst time to buy to buy an apartment and then at the end, we just, we didn’t want to because I was moving back from Washington DC to New York, we didn’t want to be long distance. landlords, so we decided to just sell it and took the loss. But in retrospect, you know, might have been a better idea to, to hold on to that and use it as a rental property because that place I just had so many amazing things about it. And I think that gets to something we’re gonna end up talking about later is there are some inefficiencies in the real estate market that you can capitalize meaning like, the stock market is supposed to be completely efficient. Everybody has all the same information at all at the same time, but the real estate market, if you’re going to be living in a place for a while, you’re really going to be invested in looking at A lot of places and doing your research and doing your due diligence until you end up deciding on a place. And that research has some value to it. So if you hold on to it, you might be able to find something that is undervalued or underpriced. And then and then turn it into something.
Yeah, you’re exactly right. So, you know, we are real estate, like my wife had a real estate license around 2003. I got mine around 2005. And, like you said, the real estate market crashed around the 2006 2007 period. And, you know, we dealt with a lot of residents, especially he bought during those years, and it was really hard for them because they were like he had graduated. And they had to make a decision, you know, should they sell their house for a loss or should they keep it and hopefully hold out until the pricing had recovered. And, you know, most of them actually ended up selling for a loss because like you today, they want to they’re moving away. They didn’t want to keep moving It from a distance but no funny story, we had a resident who kept their townhouse. And he is just selling it now from that 2006 2008 top here. And these actually Finally, you know, able to make a little bit of profit after all this year, so he kept it and rented it out to help it recover back to baseline.
So there are ways that even if something like that happens, hopefully it won’t be for some extremely extended period of time to protect yourself against loss, but there is no like any investment, there’s going to be some some risk involved. So so your wife is a real estate agent, you’re a real estate agent. And your website doctor moves you. You named a doctor moves presumably because you help doctors to move
Correct. Correct. So So I saw I joined an allergy practice in Charleston, South Carolina in 2006. At that same point, my wife and I started our real estate company in Charleston, South Carolina. We called it healthy Realty. And initially, we really just focused on helping doctors relocate and did that mainly for the first few years. But as the company began to grow, we started doing a lot more online advertising and now we create a were we helping anybody houses. We did a lot of Zillow advertising over the years not really, you know, took us to another level in the real estate company. But now with all that probably worked with over 200 positions in the Charleston area over the last 10 years and few years ago, we started thinking that we’ve learned a lot through this experience how positions are different than other buyers and sellers. And you know, learned a lot about out of Lansing said, Hey, we can now teach the same thing that we’ve been teaching people in Charleston for years. You know, through a website that helps people like, relocate nationally. And so that’s kind of how Dr. Mayes came about was from just our experience in the Charleston market, and kind of went that wanted to share it with, you know, people across the US.
So let’s say you have a med student that just graduated from M USC. And he spent some time with you in the allergy office. And he comes to you for some advice, saying he’s moving to x city for residency, and he’s thinking of buying a house there. What are the steps that you’re going to take that that physician through, to make sure that they’re making the best decision for them?
Yeah, so that’s something I you know, have a lot of passion about 18 years have actually been lecturing the students at Medical University of South Carolina on that, you know, decision process and, you know, the first thing I encourage them to do is sit down and make a budget. I mean, that’s the best thing you can do before you start thinking about whether to buy or rent is sit down and make a budget, you know, figure out, what is your salary going to be after taxes, how much money is going to be left over? And then figure out, are you going to start paying on your student loans or not? And then figure out, you know, what’s your other costs gonna be and kind of figure out, you know, how much money you’re going to have left over for housing cost, whether that’s to buy or rent, one of the worst decisions, you know, I’ve seen this residence is getting in a house that they can’t afford. I mean, there’s nothing worse than having all the pressures of residency and having to worry about Can I make my house payment every month. And so the way to you know, avoid that, and again, I can go with buying or renting is just to sit down, and, you know, figure out what your budget is, and there’s a lot of great online resources to help you do that. So once you figure that out, you know, the next step I think is you know, to figure out out, do you want to buy or rent? I think there’s definitely you know, we always, you know, with the people we work with, we try to, you know, get them to make the best decision for them for each person, because each person is different, like you said, you know, you went to Washington DC now. So, a lot of times it’s harder for people in these big cities to four properties on a resident salary. So, as one of the first things to figure out, you know, can I afford a property close enough to the hospital and some cities you can and some cities you can’t? And then you know, after that, you know, that’s the next thing that ask yourself is, do I want to deal with the problems of you know, owning property, because you know, owning property is always something to deal with. And there are some people out there who like dealing with that kind of stuff and there’s some other people that don’t and so, if you’re one of these people that would not enjoy dealing with the H fac system breaking one A house that we bought on a way rotation and a pipe popped out on the second floor of a house we had water coming down from the second floor to the first topic and we had our next door neighbor call me while away rotation and say, Hey, john, you want to may want to come back. You have water flowing out of your basement and we had about $100,000 worth of damage. And we had to move out of our house for three months during the middle of residency. unfortunate thing was that we had homeowners insurance and you know, covered everything except the thousand dollar deductible. But still, you know, it was it was a big headache and having to deal with that as not been done right.
I actually had something similar happened to me. I had a link a leak. I was the fifth floor of an apartment building and there was but I was there. There was a leak coming out of the sink from under the sink right where the valve is. So I tighten the valve and then it got worse. I thought maybe I’m just an idiot. And I turned the valve the wrong way. So it turns the other way and it got worse. So every time I got worse, I got worse because the leak was between the wall and the valve. So, wow. So ultimately the place is flooded, someone ended up calling the fire department. And they came in and they just crimped the pipe. Maybe I should have known to do that. But you know, the panic was not helping and there ended up being quite a quite a bit of damage to the place.
And in New York, where I’m from,
you can’t buy a place without homeowner’s insurance. They won’t let you in Washington DC. They do. So I assumed just like in New York, it was just rolled into the mortgage. It was not I had no homeowners insurance. That was a big problem. Wow. Yeah.
Wow.
That’s one thing you gotta you know, look into when you’re buying a home. You got to make sure that you Get homeowners insurance and then now your deductible because again on a resident salary, if you have $1,000 deductible or $2,000 deductible, you need to make sure that you can afford that if you have, you know, something catastrophic happen like flooding or fire or hurricane, anything like how you just want to make sure that you can afford that if you you know, decide to buy a property.
Is there any good formula like a quick and dirty for the residents salary? What you think would be a reasonable amount to spend? I know it’s a personal decision, but certainly there’s some for like, 40% of gross or something like that.
Yeah, you know, the one that I hear a lot is somewhere between 30 to 35% of your net. Now, if you’re wanting to put money away for retirement or other things, all that those decisions enter in and it affects you and the amount you will spend per house the state. You know, I see residents Make when they’re looking for houses, there are many of them that want to buy their final home during residency and know what you’re really looking for. I think during residency, it’s not your final home. But either a home that you can sell when you move in three to five years, or you know, home, that’s going to be a good investment that it could be a good rental property. And, you know, the nicest properties out there don’t always meet that eligibility. So, again, I think those are the things you want to really listen, you want to find a good real estate agent, first of all, who can help you make a good first purchase. You know, you don’t want to buy a house probably on a major road. You don’t want to buy a house with heavy traffic. You want to buy a house that no is gonna be easy to sell. I mean, house has been on the market for a year. There’s probably some reasons why other people haven’t liked it. And so you got to ask those hard questions as he knows there’s something about this house that’s gonna make it hard to sell when I need to resell it.
So let’s say you decide that it’s the right thing for you. Do you want to buy it? Let’s talk about financing. What are the different options for either someone about to start residency? Or someone who just became an attending? Because I think a lot of the advantages of the the physician specific loans are, you know, they don’t they don’t count the debt and less of a downpayment. So if you’ve been an attending for a couple of years, the those advantages usually go away. So let’s talk about someone who needs to take advantage of a physician specific loan or an FHA loan. If that or maybe they’re a veteran, they might have those options available. What are the different options and why would you choose one over another?
Yeah, so we’ll start with Dr. Lyons. So the thing to understand about Dr. Lyons is the doctor learn, like you stated, don’t take into account educational debt if the loan debt Taken account of educational debt, many residents will not be able to buy a house because their their debt to loan value be way too high. So, one of the advantages of loans, they don’t take that into account. Another advantage of a doctor loan is that you can get 100% financing. So, most residents have not saved money to where they can put down a decent downpayment. You know, typically with most loans, you have to put down a minimum of 3% downpayment, and that’s not including your closing costs. So, again, you’d have to have a 3% saved to be able to do that. The other nice thing about the daughter’s loan is that you avoid private mortgage insurance. You hear the term PMI private mortgage insurance, and that is a fee that’s tacked on to your loan until you have 20% of the loan. Pay Also, if you’re able to put down 20% down payment, you can avoid PMI. But the nice thing about dollar sign you have no PMI starting at 100%. So typically, for most no residents that have not saved any money, you know, the dollar signs are probably the way to go. Now, if you have money saved up and you’re able to put down a down payment, then you definitely want to look at the other types of loans to to see if you can get a better rate or a better
deal. And the reason that they have this PMI is because if you’re not putting down much, then you’re considered higher risk. So the way that they mitigate this risk is by charging you more, but historically, doctors are a safe bet, and correct me if I’m wrong. The National default rate is somewhere a little over 4%. Whereas for doctors, it’s somewhere between point two and point 4%. Isn’t
that correct? I don’t know those stats. I mean, I agree with you that they’re a lower risk, but again, Like you said, the whole point of the mortgage insurance goes back to the mortgage crash back in 2007 2008. That PMI helped protect the banks when people can no longer pay their monthly mortgage payments. And you started seeing foreclosures and short sales. So as to protect the bank in the end,
so you’re paying for their insurance against the risk that they’re taking on you. Correct. Okay. Interesting. So are there any other advantages to to taking a doctor loan? Or it’s the those are the two the no downpayment, and the and the lack of PMI?
And yeah, and then like you said, you know, not taking into educational debt. I mean, those are the three main advantage. Sometimes with airlines, the rates are higher because of that so many times if you’re able to put money down, you may be able to get a better rate. So that’s why You know, you want to look at other products if you can, because you may be able to get better rates and better terms. You know, the mistake that anybody makes looking at a house, they just look at the rate, you also have to look at what the bank is charging you and points and other expenses. Because sometimes the reason you have a low rate is because they’re charging all the fees. So it’s kind of the whole package, you got to look at everything, you can’t just look at the rate and making your decision on which one to go with. So they mitigate their risks in another way. You’re saying if they because they if they have higher interest rates for you, then you might not have to pay they might be ignoring your loans, not having to pay PMI, but now they’re charging you a higher interest rate. In order to mitigate those risks, make it make it a credit or deal for them. Okay, that’s interesting, or they’ll hide that in fees. Correct. So you just have to, you know, look at that total picture. That’s what you have to do with, you know, all these lines. As I was saying, that’s really important, you know, during rush See, most people know how long they’re going to be in a town. So let’s say you’re doing an EMT residency, you know, you’re going to be in a town for five years, well, you have a choice, you get the loan, whether you’re going to do an adjustable rate mortgage, which is known as arm or a fixed rate. And, you know, I, I’m personally a big fan of the adjustable rate mortgages, you know, most likely you’re only going to be in a city for a certain amount of time. So for example, BMT You know, you’re going to be there five years, I personally would like a seven year arm, rather than like a five year arm, the five year arm, you know, something happens, you decide to stay a little bit longer, you’re, you got a chance to sit your rate go up, you know, seven year hedges, your bat bat, so a little bit gives you a little bit more time and stuff changes and now you need a little bit longer with that line for whatever reason. So I like that justify your rate mortgages because the rates usually lower than the fixed rate and again, if you know you’re only going to be in a For short term, then I think they can be a good choice.
Could you just describe what what an adjustable rate mortgage is? So the fixed rate mortgage, you have the same interest rate for the life of the loan. And that’s it. Right? And so when you take out correct most of the many, many mortgage, my mortgage on my house is we have a 30 year mortgage, it’s a fixed rate mortgage. But for the adjustable rate mortgage, how does that work?
Yeah, so So I’ll start against the fixed rate. So fixed rate mortgage is the most, the taglines that most people get is usually the 30 year fixed or 15 year fixed. So the rate of the loan is fixed over 15 years or 30 years. Typically, you know, with the with the fixed rate, the rates are a little bit higher than the adjustable rate mortgages. with adjustable rate mortgages, you have products that are three year Adjustable Rate five years, seven years, and typically the shorter the term, the lower the Right, so you’re going to get a better rate. So let’s take a five year adjustable rate mortgage, so you’re going to get the same rate for the first five years. And then after that five years, your rate is going to adjust. So if interest rates have stayed the same from when you got the loan, it’s probably not going to change much. If they’ve gone down, they, they may go down, the big risk is when they go up. So if you get into a period, when rates go up dramatically, from the beginning of when you get your loan, you could really see a big change, they typically have caps with each loan. So you want to understand what the cap is how much but again, that’s where you really can get hurt, if you No need still need that mortgage. You can always, you know, with an adjustable rate mortgage or a fixed rate you can you can refinance it, if needed, but again, you know, the cost with that may outweigh the benefit. So again, it’s a numbers game to figure all that out.
But that sounds like it makes sense for someone who’s going to have like said the anti residency is five years long, you can lock in a lower rate than a fixed rate for those five years on the adjustable rate mortgage, and then when you’re done, even if the rate goes up, either you offload, you sell the property, or at that point, you’re making an attending salary. So even if the rate goes up, it’s just, it won’t be as devastating, as if you were still making a resident salary.
Yeah. And I think, you know, I think what you want to ask yourself, you know, you want to ask yourself some hard questions when you’re deciding on the product. No one is, do you do you think you want to get rid of this house when you leave? So you say, you know, hey, I’m definitely not going to want to keep this house and if I stay in this town, I want to get a bigger better house, then Adjustable Rate probably makes sense. Another question asked yourself, like we talked about earlier, you know, do I want to start building my portfolio or passive properties and do I I want to make this into a rental property. If you want to make this into a rental property when you finish up, then you probably makes a lot more sense to get a fixed rate mortgage. So you know what your costs are going to be throughout the whole term. So if you can ask yourself those questions, it will help you a lot deciding whether you should get an adjustable or fixed rate mortgage.
And for those that are listening that thinks that that is just a crazy idea holding on to a property and, and renting it out. Since you’re listening to this podcast, you probably listen other podcasts and there are plenty out there about the benefits of real estate investment and you can find a company to manage the property for you for a fee. So like, like Dr. Amy said, it’s a great way to start building a portfolio because then you have passive income through that property. Another thing that’s discussed on on the physician specific podcasts and blogs is living like a resident. So it actually makes sense, right, when you begin And attending to not spend like an attending immediately. So if you’re in your resident, apartment or resident house, it actually makes sense to stay there for a couple of years continuing to live like a resident before you try and find that big, beautiful house. And we had the frugal physician on a couple of episodes ago, where, where she talked about what happens when you try and buy that big, beautiful house so quickly, and how stressful that can be. So, you know, this is not what, this is not how a lot of people think when they’re starting in residency, I’m going to start accumulating a portfolio of investment properties, but there are tons of benefits to having that mindset.
Yeah, you know, unfortunately, you know, I said, we see I see that a lot. There’s a lot of, you know, a delayed gratification in our field that you know, which ourselves we’ve worked so hard for all these years, you know, we deserve this nice car. We deserve this nice house and I think from you know, the best mistake Point, that’s a surefire way to not get rich or to build your wealth is to, you know, think and I, you know, I think a better way to think if you want to build your wealth, if you want to take, you know, the fire principle, which is financial independence, retire early and think more like you’re saying, you know, is this a good investment? No, it would have made more sense for me to want to buy a second house to get one that’s a lesser cost. So I can keep this rental property and start seeing some passive income accumulate.
So let’s say you’ve you found the apartment, or you found the property you want to this is where you want to live for residency, but you have so little money in the bank, just because you’re not making a down payment. Doesn’t mean there’s no upfront costs. So So talk to me about what those upfront costs are, even when you’re talking about zero downpayment.
Yeah, so a lot of people when you buy your first house, you don’t realize That, you know, there are closing costs associated with buying a house and typically as closing costs can run around 3% of the house value. Now one thing you can do with these closing costs, if you have a good realtor, you can ask the sellers to pay the closing costs. So if you don’t have cash where you can afford to pay that, you can ask the seller to pay your closing costs. Typically, let’s say that your closing costs are going to be $5,000. You ask the seller to pay the $5,000 in exchange for that seller may want to increase the price of the house for $5,000. That’s okay. It’s kind of you’re paying just you know, you’re getting them to help you pay for that, you know, a lot of residents are in that scenario, they just don’t have money to pay closing costs for downpayment. So that’s one thing to think about it you know, if you’re saying hey, I really want to buy but don’t have any money saved up. That’s one way you know, to be able to do that. That
That seems a little shady Hear that you’re you don’t have the money for closing costs, and you’re still there, because it’s getting wrapped up into your mortgage. So you’re still there still, the seller is still getting their $5,000 you’re just paying them basically, they’re loaning you that $5,000 because you’re, you’re wrapping it up into the cost of the mortgage, and then they’re paying those upfront costs. I guess, I guess that works. I guess it’s not so shady that I think about it.
Well, I mean, you know, there’s, you know, there’s two ways to look at it, you know, one way, a lot of financial advisors will say, you know, that’s a good way to do it, you know, roll that $5,000 into your loan, you’re paying four to 5% on it, you know, that’s not, you know, high interest rate, if you look at historically, and you know, one of them would say that, you know, you can invest your money and other people financial advisors would say, you don’t have that four to $5,000 you probably shouldn’t be buying a house. So you know, there’s two sides of the coin and Look at it differently. So it really depends on you know, the way you invest and you know, making that decision. And let’s say you bought your house during residency.
And now you’ve become an attending you because you’ve made it. So you’ve been living, hopefully not paycheck to paycheck but close to it. So you don’t have much in savings.
Now you’ve got this bump in salary,
and you want to buy a second property. Now that you’ve become an attending, and you still have the loans. Could you use a second physician loan? Is that possible?
It is. And if you go to our site, Dr. Moon calm, we’ve written some articles on that topic, that there are certain banks that will let you use your loans to buy the best properties and second homes. Not all the banks do that. So there are only certain ones that will allow you to do that, but it is possible and we have a list of the banks that will allow you to do that.
Okay, so you’re in Charleston. So let’s say I’m buying. I’m starting my residency in Tallahassee, how do I find a real estate agent?
So one of the things we’ve tried to do with Dr. Moves is make it easy on the doctors to find a real estate agent. Now, going back to my initial story, we made the mistake of not asking other people for references of the realtor. So you know, a minimum, you need to talk to people who live in that town and say, Hey, did you use Did you have a good experience? Even better than that, if you’re a physician, you know, talk to other physicians, because again, they’re, you know, in our town of Charleston, we have, you know, about 6000 houses on the market and we have about 4000 realtors. And so there’s about you know, almost one realtor per house. And so they’re everywhere and Not all the realtors in Charleston know anything about working with a physician. So as a physician, what you really want to do is find a realtor who has experience working with physicians because it is different. There’s many realtors out there that don’t know anything about Dr. Lyons. And, again, it’s good to have a realtor out there who understands the difference between a doctor loan and a regular line. So what we’ve done at Dr. Moves is we have made it easy on people pretty much they can send us an email, call us up, and we’ll match them with a realtor in whatever city they’re going to and what we’ve done is we’ve, we go and interview the realtors before and find out how many doctors they work with. We look at some of their reviews. And again, we try to find realtors who have a lot of real estate kinda like you want to if you’re going to have a knee replacement, you don’t want somebody that’s just done. Five knee replacement, you want somebody that’s done a lot of knee replacement. Same thing with real estate, you don’t want a realtor who has just started in the profession, you want somebody who has done a lot of transactions because the real thing about real estate is that you know, for many transactions, now, you may not need a realtor. But when you get into a bad situation, you don’t know what to do. The realtors worth their weight and gold to say, Hey, this is what we need to do to get you out this past situation. Having a realtor with experience is worth its weight gold. I’ll share story with you. We were working with a resident who had a contract to buy newly built house. It was about five days away from closing on the house to house it got hit by lightning and caused significant damage to the electrical system. So again, you’re buying your first house. What do you do if you work in with your And who’s a realtor that maybe has sales one house a year, they’re probably not going to be too much help to you, but you’re working for a realtor who does know over 100 transactions a year they probably run into something similar or at least they know people who can give you good advice on how to deal with that situation. And then
I see also have a resource in the website for finding doctor loans
based on your region, yeah, you can go and search by state
what companies do daughter loans and you know, compare rates. So, most states have multiple banks doing that and then you know, we have there also, you know, I think, you know, this program is mainly focused on doctors, but we have found banks that will do them for pharmacists and physical therapists and other medical professions out there. So, you know, General the dotted lines are for physicians that there are some out there, you know, for other medical professional
And I see you have a couple of other sources on your website that I think bear mentioning, if you want to discuss those briefly filling out medical surveys become a becoming a medical reviewer, unrelated to real estate, but certainly very helpful.
Yeah, so what we’re trying to do with that, too, is, you know, all that stuff’s common associated with the process of moving, you know, you’re looking for jobs, or looking for ways to make extra income. And I’ve been doing medical surveys now for over 15 years. And it’s related, you know, large list of companies that do this, and, you know, we’ve had a list on there and what you have to do is just go in and out. And always get the question of how do I decide which company to sign up? You know, what I did when I was in residency, I found that with most of them, and what I found is that, you know, certain companies work with certain specialties more than other so it’s good to be signed up with multiple and you know, you can earned significant, you know, spending cash doing these surveys. Over the years, I’ve earned probably 10 to $15,000 a year doing the survey. So, you know, depending on your specialty, there’s definitely a need for people doing surveys. We also have information all about doing medical reviews in telemedicine, and you know, other ways to earn extra income of expert with witnessing to something else that we have on there.
Is there anything else that you that you wanted to mention that we didn’t discuss yet today?
No, I think the main thing that, you know, I want to get back to is, you know, preparing, you know, when you decide that you want to buy a house, again, it’s a very emotional decision and many doctors get out there and they buy houses that they can’t afford or are too expensive that their time and training. And when the bank’s qualify you for a loan, they’re not always looking at your budget to see what you can afford to pay for they’re, they’re always giving you the maximum they think you can afford. And so again, that doesn’t mean that it’s going to be comfortable for you if you go with the maximum they’re recommending. So to make a good decision, you always want to sit down and think about a budget.
Yeah, they recognize that your likelihood of defaulting is extremely low. But as you’re avoiding default, that doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re not miserable because you’re stressing over the not only the mortgage payments, but all the upkeep that goes along with having a more expensive home. So as long as you’re making your payments there, they’re fine. They’re not invested in in some of the misery that’s associated with, with with living paycheck to paycheck. So I think that’s, that’s, that’s an excellent point.
And again, if you’re married, you know, you want to think you know, long term care, you know, be you and your spouse, both want to work. Now because if you Get pre qualified on both your salaries. And you know, one of the people decide to stay home, it may be very hard to maintain that payment. So again, you want to think, you know, hey, am I going to start having kids in three to five years? And what am I going to do with that in the world? Had the plan that one person was staying home, you want to try to make your initial decision on that not on both people’s salaries?
Well, Doctor me Where can people find you?
Yeah, so you can go to send me an email at info at Dr. moves, calm, happy to answer any questions. Again, we just want to be a resource. I’ve been very blessed in my career. And you know, I feel like one of the things we didn’t talk about that but very fortunate and making good real estate decisions and have, you know, investment properties that are residential, commercial, and even vacation rentals and, you know, it’s been nice to get to a point To be able to pay off a lot of those properties and re seeing them, you know, be cashflow positive. And so it’s nice to get to a point in your career where you work because you want to not because you have to. And that’s where, you know, I feel like I am at this point. And I’m only 45. And I see as a blessing. So again, the reason I was able to get there was the decisions I made when I was 32 and 33 and 34. making good decisions then will pay off in your 40s and 50s. So you just got to think about making great decisions, you know, when you’re going into being an attendee.
Well, I really appreciate appreciate you taking the time to talk on the podcast, and it has been very informative, and it’s been a pleasure.
Thanks. It was great talking to you tonight.
That was Dr. Bradley Block at the physicians guide to doctoring. Find all previous episodes on iTunes, Stitcher, Google podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and write us Review. You can also visit us on facebook@facebook.com slash physicians guide to doctoring. If you are interested in being a guest or have a question for a prior guest, send a message or post a comment.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai

 

The Real Estate Physician – Cherry Chen, MD

Dr. Cherry Chen, the Real Estate Physician discusses this potential source of stable, predictable, passive-income as an alternative to investing in the stock market.  We discuss how she made her foray into this field, the tax advantages of real estate investment, why she chooses multi-family commercial real estate via syndication over crowdfunding or individual units, and how picking a syndication is like picking a doctor.

http://therealestatephysician.com

https://www.facebook.com/TheRealEstatePhysician/

 

The Real Estate Physician – Cherry Chen, MD

Dr. Cherry Chen, the Real Estate Physician discusses this potential source of stable, predictable, passive-income as an alternative to investing in the stock market.  We discuss how she made her foray into this field, the tax advantages of real estate investment, why she chooses multi-family commercial real estate via syndication over crowdfunding or individual units, and how picking a syndication is like picking a doctor.

http://therealestatephysician.com

https://www.facebook.com/TheRealEstatePhysician/

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

This is the transcript to the episode. This transcript was created by a talk to text application and the function of having this here is to improve the page search engine optimization. This transcript has not been proofread, so please listen to the episode and don’t read this. The information contained herein will inevitably contain inaccuracies that affect that quality of the information conveyed and the creator of this content will not be held liable for consequences of the use of the information herein.

Unknown Speaker  0:03
Welcome to the physicians guide to doctoring A Practical Guide for practicing physicians. We’re Dr. Bradley Block interviews experts in and out of medicine to find out everything we should have learned while we were memorizing Krebs cycle. The ideas expressed on this podcast are those of the interviewer and interviewee and do not represent those of their respective employers.
Unknown Speaker  0:27
On the previous episode, we spoke to the frugal physician about how to save more money. On today’s episode, we talked to the real estate physician about how to invest that money. Dr. Cherry Chen is a real estate investor who has the real estate physician com website and she tries to educate physicians as to why real estate is a reasonable investment and a good alternative to the stock market. We talked about the different types of investments and why she chose commercial multifamily is her motive investment, and why she finds this to be the least risky of all the different types, as well as the different ways to invest between owning everything yourself syndication, crowdfunding, and why she chooses syndication, and then how to identify a syndication that you can trust and why it’s like finding a doctor. Welcome back to the physicians guide to doctoring. On today’s episode, we have Dr. Cherry Chen. She is a practicing physician in Texas, who now spends a lot of her time investing in real estate and connecting other fellow physicians with that method of investing. So Dr. Chen, thank you so much for for joining us today to educate our listeners.
Unknown Speaker  1:41
Yes, I read. Thank you for having me on your podcast. I’m really excited to be here and looking forward to our conversation.
Unknown Speaker  1:49
So just to get to know you, where did you do your training?
Unknown Speaker  1:54
I trained I went to medical school at Texas a&m. I’m from the Dallas area here in Texas. And then I did my internal medicine training at OHSU in Portland, Oregon. And now I’m back in Dallas, where I’m from in a practicing internal medicine hospitalist.
Unknown Speaker  2:11
So are you practicing full time?
Unknown Speaker  2:13
Yes, I’m practicing full time as a hospice. That’s correct.
Unknown Speaker  2:17
So the real estate thing has, I guess, become or at least started out as your your side gig. So you’re doing this on top of practicing full time. That’s, that’s, that’s pretty impressive.
Unknown Speaker  2:28
Yeah, that’s, I mean, that’s correct. I’m kind of lucky in that way that a hospitalist, you know, schedule kind of affords you, you know, 15 or 17 shifts a month. So there’s definitely time outside of that. And you’re right is kind of started out, as you know, definitely my own personal investment for myself and kind of just grew organically as I talked to other physicians. So that’s where I’m now.
Unknown Speaker  2:52
So how did you get there first, tell us how you got started in real estate and then where you’ve taken it from your own personal investing to expand it to offering to others?
Unknown Speaker  3:04
Sure, yeah. So I would say, you know, my story started about, you know, three to four years ago, as far as, you know, investing in real estate, that’s kind of when I, you know, finished my training and started making more money as an attending, in kind of, I think, as we’re all aware, we didn’t get any, you know, investment or financial education, through our schooling. And so, as I made more money, you know, it really was I put a concerted effort into, you know, wanting to see how my money could work for me. And in the financial world, the fancy word is you know, cash flow means just means how much money you keep in your bank account at the end of the month. Because I think when we graduate you know, we think all we make more money, we have high income as physicians, but it’s not how much you make, it’s how much you keep and that was a new concept for me. As I kind of started exploring, well, what makes a good investment? And it was through that process in that context of, you know, being more proactive about my finances now that I’m out of training. And in that context, I started exploring what other options there were for investing. And that’s how I kind of stumbled upon real estate. What do you mean, stumbled upon it? Sure. So I think, you know, for most of us, and for me, we had investments in my 401k, or stocks and bonds or your IRA account, that was kind of basically what was really kind of thought the only option, because it’s all we ever heard or heard about other people investing in and nobody talked about, oh, I invested in real estate, you know, so, for me when I looked, you know, I had certain criteria that I thought would be important, and it wasn’t like I had, you know, like my A to Z criteria, the sign from the very beginning. I kind of as I was exploring other options, you know, I realized, you know, what would make a good investment. And you think about investing in the stock market? Most people, you know, I don’t know, it’s kind of the de facto or default. So we don’t really consider it as a risky investment. But, you know, when we talk about alternative investments, which is what real estate would be considered, you know, a lot of people will say, Oh, isn’t that risky? So really depends what what you mean by risk, I would say, the differences being in Wall Street, you know, you could wake up tomorrow, and it’s, you know, the whims of the market. So it’s definitely volatile and unpredictable. And it doesn’t really, you know, put money in your pocket at the end of the month, you know, so those two two factors being the stability and predictability of what an investment I think should be and it bringing cash flow, meaning your money’s actually working hard for you, independent of your Time real estate was able to do that when I kind of explored and fit my criteria in that way. So I would say stumbled upon in terms of, I didn’t really go out seeking a knowing real estate was a good option in that way.
Unknown Speaker  6:16
So I guess more discovered the then then stumbled upon because it looks it sounds like you did a lot of research in order to arrive at this conclusion.
Unknown Speaker  6:25
Correct? Correct. I am an internist. So it’s like I have to know everything. So I, you know, Google till the ends of the earth, did all the try to educate myself as much as possible. And that’s kind of how I came to define my criteria. On what it right.
Unknown Speaker  6:42
I think the risky kind of like, when we have our patients, they’re nervous about something. And a lot of times they’re nervous about it, because they don’t understand it, or you know, they don’t know what the outcome is going to be. And so it’s the not knowing that makes you nervous. And so what you did is you mitigated that by educating yourself. When those people are saying, well, isn’t it risky? It’s a lot. Well, you know, the it’s the it’s the lack of knowledge that breeds anxiety. So, but historically is are you aware of any comparison of the market to the real estate market like the the stock market to the real estate market?
Unknown Speaker  7:19
Right, I would say I mean, real estate is really broad. And we’ll probably go into like, you know, the different categories of it later. So when I talk about my investments, and the the niche I focus on is called commercial real estate. The most basic example being like an apartment complex commercial grade, meaning it’s greater than five units. And so it’s a big apartment complex, and they’re that so that’s kind of the investment vehicle I came across that I thought met all the criteria. And so that’s kind of where I focus on
Unknown Speaker  7:55
just a historically commercial multifamily real estate tends to be fairly stable and just for the listeners, because I found this confusing commercial sounds like nobody’s going to live there. Right commercial property sounds like something where there might be real retail stores or industry, but commercial multifamily specifically refers to homes that contain greater than five units
Unknown Speaker  8:23
correct and for that’s, you know, apartments it doesn’t necessarily be homes there are things like you’ll see you know, your self storage facilities that are in your neighborhood. Some places have mobile home parks, those are all considered commercial because it’s generally greater than five units. But for most of my for most of you know, the talk will be talking about apartment complexes because I think for many people, when you think about real estate, you think, Oh, well, there’s a single family rental I wanted to go you know, buy a condo and rented out on Airbnb or something. So there’s some distinct differences when you go from A single family to a commercial grade multifamily apartment property.
Unknown Speaker  9:05
And the number there is the magic number is greater than five. So if it’s anything less than five, you know, you’re you’re dealing with maybe a duplex or an individual apartment or an individual house. And then just for completeness, because we’ve spoken about this before, you can also invest in industrials. So like a an office building, or you can invest in a retail establishment and not knowing again, I don’t have any full disclosure, I have zero Real Estate Investments right now. I would think that retail might not be the safest place to be considering how much people purchase online and the direction that that’s, that’s heading.
Unknown Speaker  9:51
Any thoughts on it?
Unknown Speaker  9:52
Yeah, you’re correct. Those are all you know, you know, real estate, commercial real estate, investment options and You know, primarily why many of the commercial real estate is focused on apartments and like you said, Because will retail so many people are buying online? Well, there’s always going to be the demand for housing. And now there’s a demographic trends where, you know, Millennials will and they want the mobility and it’s not back in the day where Oh, well, you had an employer for 30 years. And so people like the idea of being mobile and not, you know, saving up 30 years to buy their one home that they’re going to live in forever. So multifamily as far as an investment vehicle has been really popular because it’s kind of intuitive. You understand it, people need a place to live, and they pay rent and what expenses you have at the end, that’s your income for the property.
Unknown Speaker  10:49
So why do you find commercial multifamily to be the one that you’ve chosen as the the safest or most advantageous investment? Yeah, I think not to be redundant. You just mentioned why you think it’s safe because people are, are, are mobile, and they, they want to be mobile and they want to be able to move around. And also people are getting married later and having families later. And so they’re going to be what? Spend more time being mobile I’m involved had between all of our schooling tons of me. Yeah, but but financially, what has been your experience and what has driven you towards that investment?
Unknown Speaker  11:34
Right. So I think you know, so for me, my criteria is one being, I think a good investment should at least be somewhat stable, predictable, and have you know, cash flow as an investor, I want my money to work for me and give me returns. So you know, just comparing it simply to for example, if you got a single family rental, versus an apartment complex, you know, like a one door versus in 100 unit, apartment calm. Plex, the, you know, if you’re a tenant moved out tomorrow from your single family home, you would go from, you know, 100% occupancy to zero, you know, in an apartment complex if I have 100 units and two people move out, I’m still at 98% occupancy, right? So losing those two tenants, I might have a slight decline, but I would still expect a pretty stable return of my investment. As an investor who has, you know, invest into the property. If you have your single family, your tenant moves out then your cash flow is basically zero, right? And every month that you’re spending to find a tenant is is is zero income, or is the 100 unit property use it?
Unknown Speaker  12:47
Yeah, because you’re still spending money on mortgage repairs, upkeep. Yeah, all the all everything that goes into it,
Unknown Speaker  12:54
right. And so in your apartment, you still have 98 tenants paying you rent, you know? And so the basically that the main advantage of having multiple units is you have the economies of scale. And you can leverage that into into a business operation. And for I think for physicians and investors, the the the nicest thing about that is I don’t have to be the landlord, and I can pull my money together with other investors into a business. And that gives me you know, return on my investment.
Unknown Speaker  13:28
Yeah, we talked about the desire to have passive income, right? And if you own an apartment, and you are the landlord, that is not passive. That is the opposite of passive because then all the upkeep and management and finding new tenants and, and even if you outsource that labor, which actually you can do, I think it bears mentioning there. I think it’s called turnkey investments where you just get a management company and they try to flip a house and they can, they’ll manage the property and they’ll flip it and they’ll You use your money to do that. You still have that higher risk of what you’re talking about. If that goes unoccupied, then you are. It’s a losing proposition. So. So there are a bunch of different ways that you can invest in these commercial multifamily buildings. You can own it yourself, which seems unlikely on a physician income, even if you’re super successful plastic surgeon or neurosurgeon
Unknown Speaker  14:29
Yeah, I mean, even for anybody it’s Yeah,
Unknown Speaker  14:32
you’re not buying an apartment building, right?
Unknown Speaker  14:37
Then you can, there’s there’s syndications, there’s crowdfunding and you can still invest in real estate in the market. They’re called reads Rei T, but so owning yourself seems pretty straightforward. If you’re not doing just buying yourself or finding one of those turn keys, which might be a different episode altogether. There are syndications and there’s crowdfunding You talk about what both of those are.
Unknown Speaker  15:01
Yeah. So syndications is is is the way I invest in these real estate opportunities and for people who have never heard the word because I had never heard of that word, you know, but it’s just a you know, the fancy word in this real estate world where they’re pulling multiple investors or multiple investors money into a company that would purchase the apartment complex because like we said, most people do not have $10 million to go buy an apartment complex all on their own. So in a syndication, the way it works is you have these deal sponsors who who will talk to the brokers who will go look at the apartment complex, who will verify the rent roll look at all the financials and and find an apartment complex they think would be a good investment. And then they they the deal sponsors then they need to find the money in order to purchase the complex. Now in the syndication commercial world, it is still 75% leverage meaning the bank finances and is the biggest partner in the transaction. But the the deal sponsors still need to find 25% or so of the money. And that’s when they would go to, you know, for example, me of an investor who’s interested in real estate, but I don’t want to manage and I want to be able to be part of a bigger apartment complex. So then they would go to investors and to pull the money together to syndicate to complete the transaction. So that’s a syndication where one you as a passive investor are or limited partner in this in this transaction, get to reap the benefits of the investment and share in the profits and you are not at risk of you know, you’re not signing the loan, you’re not doing all the all the work of managing the property, and so you’re passing Some investor, you kind of basically collect what they call mailbox money when the apartment makes money and they distributed to the investors. So in a syndication model, you actually have direct access to the deal sponsors, you can communicate with them, you can ask them questions, you can verify things that the crowdfunding model is similar in that, you know, you still have these deals, sponsors who go out to look for deals, but they’re not coming directly to the passive investors, you’ll see, you know, crowdfunding websites, where it’s just, you know, a website with the platform of like a multitude of investment opportunities. So you’re not directly talking to the sponsorship team. You’re just kind of browsing, you know, a whole bunch of opportunities and seeing Oh, well, hey, this says there’s a 10% return. Well, that looks good to me. So it’s a more indirect way to invest, where you don’t have that direct relationship with a sponsor, so there’s no right or wrong way. Everyone’s investor, you know, trust or risk profile is different. The The only other major differences, the crowdfunding has a lot less minimum investment where you’ll see on these sites where it’s 1000 or $10,000, to invest or syndications, where at the minimum investment is usually about 50,000. So that’s also another major difference.
Unknown Speaker  18:26
So when you’re choosing syndication, because that’s typically your method of investment, how do you vet them?
Unknown Speaker  18:35
Yeah. So it’s, you have to do a syndication. You have to know the sponsors, right? That’s feeling where you would hear about the opportunity to invest. It’s not, it’s not advertised. It’s not on the crowd format site. It’s not you know, Wall Street where you just pick something. So there’s multiple ways investors can go to their local meetup local apartment. meetup where these deal sponsors will be at, and you can meet them personally personally like that, or you meet somebody else on the team and invest that way. And or that’s, that’s really the only way is to meet them, either directly or indirectly, to find out about the investment.
Unknown Speaker  19:19
So, when we first met, I asked you a question, and you had a very interesting way of answering it. And, you know, the question was, how do you know that you can trust the syndication? And you said, the same way that you can, that you know, that you trust your doctor, right, like if you’re, if you’re trusting the syndication with upwards of $50,000, right, your your, your analogy was, well, you’re trusting your physician with your life. So, you know, this is a lot of people find me by going to their town Facebook group, you know, they’ll go to the Facebook group and say, Hey, does anybody know good ENT? And sometimes my name pops up. And so they come and see me And so I guess you’d find your syndication in a similar way. Except that you could have your I guess, could you could you have your accountant look at their books and make sure that that, you know, everything that they’ve done with previous deals was all on the up and up and you know, is that type of stuff, the type of thing that they make public to you,
Unknown Speaker  20:22
right? Yeah, the physician patient analogy is something, you know, I was trying to find like a good, like a good, pertinent way to explain it. It’s like if you were the investor talking to the deal sponsor, as opposed to physician patient, right. And, and we’re managing people’s health, you know, and versus they’re managing investment, but you’re putting in significant amount of capital into the investment. How do you trust that’s like one of the biggest, I think, barriers or issues we come across when you come, you know, come across an investment opportunity. And so, the you know, it’s it’s just like how We help patients Yes, they, you know, like you said indirectly they see you on Facebook. Well, they see that you want to, you know, XYZ school you went to this residency training you are accredited at this hospital. So indirectly you have you have this, you know, track record or reputation. In the same way these deal sponsors, they have prior deals they’ve done, they have, you know, other complexes they’ve owned, and you can review all of that and you don’t even have to go through your CPA The beautiful thing about the syndication is, you ask them directly, because you are going to be a potential investor, you have the right to ask all these questions and they that you you, you ask them directly you can say Well, hey, you know and sponsor you, you projected that it’s, this will return 10% next year. Show me how you got there, you know, or show me why you think this apartment can rent for thousands dollars a month rather than maybe 800. You can ask them all those questions.
Unknown Speaker  22:07
But if they had, if they let’s say they put together a building, and it was doing poorly, right, right, they wouldn’t want to tell you about that. Is there a way to access that type of information
Unknown Speaker  22:18
and a way to access that? There is no you know, database where you can put in Oh, sponsor XYZ name, and, you know, all their deals would pop up. Now, most of them will have websites where they put in all their properties that they’ve, you know, acquired. So, that’s the way to go to their website to say, hey, well tell me about this property and what’s been going on, you know, and, you know, another way is, you know, invest just like patients, you know, they say, Oh, well, you know, Dr. XYZ referred to me all my friend came to you and they really, you know, loved us their physician. So that’s how I found out about you. You can talk to other other investors that have invested in them, they can say, Well, hey, even they treated me really well, or they did not treat me well. And so there’s other other investor testimonials you can do too. So, I think trust, you know, in this way, it was a question for me as well. But, you know, one that I could verify their records, the fact that the apartment is a business, they can’t make up these numbers, they look at the financial statements, they look at the income and expenses, and those are things you can ask for and verify yourself. And so that for me, and looking at things, a very objective way, you know, so that kind of helped me overcome that. The trust issue,
Unknown Speaker  23:45
can you do that with crowdfunding
Unknown Speaker  23:47
with the ground funding, I do not believe you can do that. I don’t, I’ve never invested via crowdfunding. So I don’t know this step by step process of the way that works, you know, so I don’t want to to misguide That the listeners because I’ve never done it step by step myself.
Unknown Speaker  24:05
Okay. And I think that’s that’s fair and thank you for for for admitting that that’s that’s much appreciated by by everyone for crowdfunding though I just and correct me if I’m wrong and you know you’ve never done it but I think they can advertise, we’re syndications can’t and so syndications thrive off of their reputation and these introductions right you, you find syndications that have done well you introduce them to other potential investors with crowdfunding, they have these websites and they can just advertise and you because you can find them this way. They’re not they don’t need that word of mouth reputation. It’s kind of like, I guess. Actually, I’m having trouble thinking of analogy, I guess as physicians advertising versus just just you know, before the days of advertising, there was just word of mouth. And if you had some bad outcomes, then that would get around and then you know, you’re, you’re kind of sunk it, you know if that’s true of crowdfunding.
Unknown Speaker  25:09
Yeah. So the only one exception to what you said is, you know, through syndications, you know, the sponsors there through a syndication, there’s two ways they can raise money. You know, like we said, The first way is to where they, you, you they directly know, the investors, you know, through their circle, or the other way that they can legally advertise is they they made what we call a 506. See offering in that just so is an SEC term. And that in that way, when they are only advertising to a specific investor, what they define as an accredited investor, then they don’t have to have that relationship or know you. Exactly. So there’s that one exception,
Unknown Speaker  25:59
okay. You’re making a pretty convincing argument for investing in commercial multifamily real estate through syndications. But I think there’s more of an argument to be made, right in terms of the tax advantages of these investments because, you know, high income individuals pay a lot in taxes, although our we’re not going to get political. But our current president and his son in law involved in real estate, turns out, don’t pay much in taxes. And that’s not you know, I, again, political, that’s not through tomfoolery, or trickery. Some of it may be, but it seems that it’s on the up and up because of how real estate operates. That somehow you can protect your investments from where you protect your yourself from taxes. So, so can you talk about some of the tax advantages of investing in real estate.
Unknown Speaker  27:03
Yeah, I be you know, obviously not an accountant and so I don’t know the exact ins and outs but on a very you know a basic level that I understand it as an investor myself is that because if you’re investing in real estate and real estate you know in the government’s i is something that they want to promote investors to invest in because one, you know, we talked about it provides housing and provides jobs, it provides for growth in a city in a community and they want they want investors people out there to provide housing for these people. So, government provides incentives to promote activities that they want to promote whether we believe it or you know, feel for or against it. So the the advantage of investing in real estate which people calling say, you know, you can have a Tax Free income. And that’s coming from as a real estate you get depreciation of the property of the building of the equipment. And so when the government IRS allows the accountants or you know the business to take that depreciation of these properties and buildings over time, that often will offset the income you get from your investment in. That’s how, you know, they come up with the term tax free income.
Unknown Speaker  28:34
This is how I’m understanding depreciation. And correct me if I’m wrong, you buy a building, kind of like buying a car, as soon as you drive it off the lot, right? It starts to lose value, because the building is aging. So it the building is losing value, it’s depreciating. And so it’s almost like if you lose capital losses in this in the market, you can deduct your losses. You now have capital losses because your building has depreciated. So even though you built the building a year ago, it’s a year older, and it’s depreciated and and so that capital loss can be deducted from your your taxes. Correct that would be creationist.
Unknown Speaker  29:19
Yeah like the building and and so over in commercial real estate the IRS allows you to kind of deduct that over like a, you know, the cost over 27 years or something like that. So, you know, you know, just think about how much money that is or an apartment like 100 unit apartment complex, you know, and so that depreciation is often much larger than your income that you get as an investor. So, whatever passive income you get, if that’s less than the depreciation of the building, then you don’t pay taxes even though you Have earn some income correct on your investment.
Unknown Speaker  30:03
So wait, let me see if I understand this because I, I used to live in Long Island City, which is right across the East River from Manhattan, there are some gigantic, fancy buildings there that might have 800 units. And I’m just making up a number here. Let’s say one of those buildings is worth 100 million dollars. You’re saying, in the eyes of the government, after 27 years, that building is worth zero, so it could so it has depreciated to nothing? Oh, so
Unknown Speaker  30:30
I didn’t mean it in 27. It’s like, so let’s say for instance, and these are just totally made up numbers, right. Like, for instance, this 100 unit complex building, the building itself, you know, is a million dollars. You can’t really say I’m going to take a million dollars on your, on your text form this year, you take that million you divided over a 27 year term. And that’s the amount of You know, you can legally maximally deduct on your on your tax form. That’s what I meant by the 27 years not not saying the what you were talking about. Does that make poker? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker  31:11
yeah, that definitely makes more sense.
Unknown Speaker  31:12
And so of course, I’m these are just totally made up numbers. But on a general basic level, that’s kind of what people mean when they say, Oh, well, there’s, there’s the tax advantage of investing in real estate. Because if you through through your wall street through stocks and bonds, any gain is, you know, taxes, your ordinary income, which is a lot for many of us. And so and that’s also the same if you mess and we’ll say through rates because it’s part of Wall Street. So that’s the tax advantage of investing in real estate in this way.
Unknown Speaker  31:47
But have you had any experience with your buildings being financed by the banks and in terms of non recourse loans? Have you been in that situation?
Unknown Speaker  31:57
Yes, and actually, you know, the, I would say probably I want I want to say 100%. But most of these majority of these properties are non recourse loans through the bank who finance about 75% of these transactions because that, you know, and that’s kind of another layer of, you know, if you want to say how do you vet an investment because, you know, banks are conservative and they, they’re out to make money. And for them, they see apartments or these properties as, quote unquote, safe investments. And so, they actually finance about 75% of the purchase price when you when you purchase a building like this, so, you know, they do their own underwriting, they do their own analysis, and they come up with what the what the purchase price or the value of the building is worth themselves. So they these properties are majority non recourse financed.
Unknown Speaker  32:56
So if the whole thing goes under, you don’t want this Just to clarify, this is what non recourse means. If the whole thing for whatever reason, like, let’s say, right, some of us believe that the market is a bit frothy right now and we’re at the precipice of potentially something bad. If that happens, and and the building doesn’t get built, then what happens to that 75% that the bank has lent us,
Unknown Speaker  33:25
right. So I would say so, the, you know, the, so we talked about non recourse, the other side is recourse loan, you know, so, what non recourse means, like you said, as well then we don’t have to hit you’re not liable to the bank for this loan. The only one exception in is that if for whatever reason you’re committing outright fraud, you know, or it’s called what they call the bad boy carve out if you’re not acting, you know, in quote unquote, normal behavior or committing fraud then that kind of cancels out the Non recourse, the not then you would be held liable as in that you being the deal sponsor not you as a limited partner. Because
Unknown Speaker  34:10
the loan I think if you do something to the property as well like if you something toxic or something happens on the property, something environmentally unsound happens on the property. I think that’s another reason.
Unknown Speaker  34:20
Yeah. So there’s there’s certain reasons but those are, you know, far few in between the environmental toxins is if if the bank’s found out about that, and that will be definitely before it was even an investment available to investors at the bank’s saw that and they would not lend to purchase the property to begin with. And so that’s probably what you’re talking about, okay.
Unknown Speaker  34:44
Well, if I had a friend who was investing in their 401k, and maybe they were trying to dabble in the market, try and beat the market which we know may be done. What would you say to to send and maybe just had some finances that were being managed by a financial advisor that they found? Because they they bought them lunch at when they were a resident and gave a talk that sounded good. had nice suit. Yeah. What would you say to that friend who feels that their money is as safe as it can be in the market with this educated and informed financial advisor to get this person to start investing in real estate? What’s your what’s your elevator pitch to that person?
Unknown Speaker  35:35
Um, I don’t know. So, I don’t I don’t have an elevator pitch. And I say that because one, I’m not, you know, I don’t ever want to convince somebody to invest in commercial real estate and, you know, we can talk about all the benefits and, and why I thought it was a good investment vehicle, but, you know, it’s, it’s like, you know, if your friend went to advisor it’s like, nobody really understands your financial situation, and in what your your financial needs are more than yourself, you know, nobody cares more about your money more than yourself. And so I really would say, you know, what I’ve always said to you know, other friends or families, colleagues, what, to me, the most really important is that, you know, what is your investment philosophy? Or what is your criteria, because one, you know, your friend might be right, and you know, him going to his advisor is probably the safest because maybe his or her goal is to say, I just want enough for retirement. And if I put a certain percentage of my income every year into, you know, quote, unquote, stable, safe mutual fund, I will have enough for retirement correct and he wouldn’t need to look outside of that vehicle. But, um, you know, for me, and I think for most of us, is that you, we don’t want to work forever, right? At least I don’t know forever. I Love medicine and I’ll be in it for a very long time but I want the option of you know, if I needed to for some unusual life circumstance, you know, with family or friends, my loved ones that well maybe I can work fewer clinical hours or we just want the option to have more non clinical time to spend with our family so that’s why I real estate was really attracted to me because one you know, quote unquote, predictable income in the cash flow. And you don’t get that no matter how much money you earn. If you don’t keep that in one if you’re really good at saving but to you’d have to work forever and, and that’s why I’d say you know, if real estate has the advantages and the criteria if you’re looking for passive income so that you can have the option to choose to work last should you choose to,
Unknown Speaker  37:56
so you get your investment, hopefully appreciates because, you know, the value of real estate appreciates, but then you’re also getting income through rent. So, you know, you’re, you’re in the same way that that your investment hopefully in the market appreciates your investment in the real estate appreciates, but you’re also getting that that rent. So that’s, I think important to delineate that specific.
Unknown Speaker  38:22
Yeah. And so certainly the appreciation if you look at all these for you know, is the syndication investments, it’s the good deal sponsors will not, you know, hope for that, like, you know, you they don’t anticipate that it’s like an extra bonus. So what are
Unknown Speaker  38:38
some of the resources that you consume or that you would recommend that our listeners consume? If they want to start get it like you said, you Google to the ends of the earth so that you could be more comfortable with this. Save us the time of googling to the ends of the earth. What are either the resources that you consume or the resources that either a podcast that you listen to aside from mine Of course, or, or a book or a blog or something that we can read to better educate us efficiently. Aside from I think every real estate podcast with a physician I’ve heard mentions Robert Kiyosaki was rich dad poor dad. Yeah. So we can’t end this without mentioning that. Rich Dad, Poor Dad. I’m curious how changed your philosophy on money. So aside from that, what would you recommend?
Unknown Speaker  39:37
I would say? If it depends, so one, if you think if you know your criteria, and you know what you’re looking for, even if you didn’t, so one of the nicest resources out there is probably bigger pockets. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it or familiar with that. It is a very active real estate community where people contribute all the time. Whether it be you want to do single family, multifamily, self storage, mobile, home parks, the whole gamut of real estate, there’s somebody involved in it one way or another on that site, and they contribute regularly. So I think that’s a very great starting point. And, you know, you can browse the forums and find something that fits your specific question. And to a, you know, you know, the point of going to these meetups or going to our conferences is you you build relationships with people who are who have done this or, or are doing what you want to do. So the other way is, you know, talk to other physicians who have invested before and or whatnot. And that’s kind of why I wanted to start you know, my website and company because I talked to so many physicians and one, you know, I don’t know if you identify with this because I did to in the very beginning, I didn’t want to start a company. I just Wanted to invest. But physicians, one will say, Oh, I don’t have the time to go to all those conferences. And even if I did have the time, I’m not going to, you know, you want to spend time with your family, you know, and friends and and you don’t have the time to, like you said go to the ends of the earth. And so that’s kind of one of the main reasons why I built the website to help answer these questions in one to share this kind of investment opportunity with physicians that we don’t really hear about so often.
Unknown Speaker  41:30
And where can people find you?
Unknown Speaker  41:33
The so my website is www dot the real estate physician.com. And really, it’s just a platform, like I said, that kind of grew organically out of all the conversations I had, and was a way for me to kind of systemized that and have a platform to share. So if people are interested in commercial real estate, they can just go to that site to learn a little bit more. That’s about it. And I’m always happy to answer any questions or I talked to people all the time about this, if they just want to call me or email me any questions, they don’t have to sign up on my website. And they can just email me cherry at the real estate physician calm to do that.
Unknown Speaker  42:14
Is there anything else that you’d like to mention today? We didn’t get to?
Unknown Speaker  42:17
I don’t think so. I you know, I really the one thing I would say is that I like you said, We sometimes as physicians, just leave, you know, our investments to advisors, but I really would, you know, not not to say they don’t do a good job, but really, just at least in your framework or mindset, be more proactive about your financials, whether it be well, you know, understand a little bit more about the structure in or one, you know, think about, do you need cash flow, do you not need cash flow, so just be more proactive, then you can set the criteria for what you’re looking for. And I think that’s been really helpful for me, so
Unknown Speaker  42:57
I think you’re totally right. I think it’s it’s so easy. For us to just we got on this path we got on this train, right? good scores, good grades, med school, residency, seeing patients, you know, just going through life doing what we were supposed to do. It’s, you know, we’re, we’re now being financially rewarded for it, some more than others, and to just assume that someone else to just trust someone else with that income without educating yourself, there’s so much information out there, it’s so accessible, and there are plenty of places it’s not opaque. This stuff is not that complicated. It’s really fairly easy to understand and a lot of these industries exist to try and make themselves opaque so that they seem necessary, right? A lot of these. There’s a lot of there are a lot of sales people out there and, and it’s not that hard to educate ourselves. So we really need to do it so that you know what your money He is doing you know where it’s going. And you can then not be afraid to get a little more involved in it and, and and then it also a lot more interesting than then many people think it is. So. Dr. Jerry Chen, the real estate physician, thank you so much for taking the time today. It has been a pleasure.
Unknown Speaker  44:21
No problem. Thank you so much.
Unknown Speaker  44:25
That was Dr. Bradley Block at the physicians guide to doctoring. Find all previous episodes on iTunes, Stitcher, Google podcasts. Were wherever you get your podcasts and write us a review. You can also visit us on facebook@facebook.com slash physicians guide to doctoring. If you are interested in being a guest or have a question for a prior guest send a message or post a comment.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The Frugal Physician: A Primary Care Physician’s Journey to Financial Independence

In residency, we have to live with less.  Less money.  Less time.  Less dignity.  And after finishing, we are rewarded for our herculean efforts with higher income.  Sometimes the time and dignity come back, too.  In today’s episode, the Frugal Physician and I discuss the pitfalls that can come with that increased income and how falling into the materialistic abyss brings with it more financial stress and often less happiness. We discuss her journey to frugality and lessons learned along the way. 

https://www.thefrugalphysician.com/

http://www.facebook.com/TheFrugalPhysician

The Frugal Physician: A Primary Care Physician’s Journey to Financial Independence

In residency, we have to live with less.  Less money.  Less time.  Less dignity.  And after finishing, we are rewarded for our herculean efforts with higher income.  Sometimes the time and dignity come back, too.  In today’s episode, the Frugal Physician and I discuss the pitfalls that can come with that increased income and how falling into the materialistic abyss brings with it more financial stress and often less happiness. We discuss her journey to frugality and lessons learned along the way.

Home Page

http://www.facebook.com/TheFrugalPhysician

 

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

This is the transcript to the episode. This transcript was created by a talk to text application and the function of having this here is to improve the page search engine optimization. This transcript has not been proofread, so please listen to the episode and don’t read this. The information contained herein will inevitably contain inaccuracies that affect that quality of the information conveyed and the creator of this content will not be held liable for consequences of the use of the information herein.

Unknown Speaker  0:03
Welcome to the physicians guide to doctoring A Practical Guide for practicing physicians. We’re Dr. Bradley Block interviews experts in and out of medicine to find out everything we should have learned while we were memorizing Krebs cycle. The ideas expressed on this podcast are those of the interviewer and interviewee and do not represent those of their respective employers.
Unknown Speaker  0:27
On today’s episode, we speak to the frugal physician. She’s an internal medicine physician that gave up the life of luxury, resolve that stuff was actually making her life worse. The stress of paying bills not paying down debt. Let her to downsize. Matt Damon sense life actually got better. We talked about why physicians tend to live up to the expectations of others in terms of material goods. Getting the house a physician should own the car a physician should drive rather than living up to their own expectations. And one of the most effective ways to be more frugal. How do you Get on the same page with your partner. And after all this talk of giving up material goods, why you should buy the Insta pot. Welcome back to the physicians guide to doctoring. On today’s podcast, we have the frugal physician and internal medicine physician in upstate New York. The key to how she became the frugal physician is in her origin story. So if you would please introduce yourself and tell us how you became the frugal physician.
Unknown Speaker  1:32
Hey, thanks for having me on here. I really appreciate it. So yeah, I was a just a regular old primary care doc. Actually internal medicine hospitalist Initially, I did the usual thing, went to med school and took out a bunch of loans and then went to residency and initially I planned on doing public service loan forgiveness but like many people that actually got into that plan. I didn’t, I don’t I don’t think I did the paperwork, right. So anyway, by the end of residency, I had decided not to pursue that anymore. And decided to take a job as an attending in a private company and found myself stuck with my huge amount of student loan and a house loan, actually to house loans. And then I became a mom and had to take maternity leave. And all of that kind of added up to me finding myself in a situation that I didn’t want to be in anymore. And we decided to make some major changes and ended up making a huge life changes. We actually ended up paying $100,000 in student loans, and about six months after we made some of these changes, so I really felt like we kind of found something important to for medical students and residents, so kind of wanted to share that. And so that’s why I started blogging at the frugal position.
Unknown Speaker  3:09
And I appreciate that so much because with some of my friends and colleagues, I find that that the even with significant incomes, some of them live paycheck to paycheck and there there are a lot of resources out there for us positions. Passive Income MD, that white coat investor that talks about the importance of investing wisely, but you can’t even get to that step if you’re spending all your money and not doing any savings. So I think before you even get to exploring those, you need to visit the frugal physician com
Unknown Speaker  3:52
Thank you. Yeah, I mean people get that’s that’s kind of where we were we upgraded our lifestyle. You know, I was so Ready to have it all once we got once we got done with residency rather once I got done with residency, my husband was in the army initially, but he decided to get out and we decided to move to the beach and have it all and bought a big house and and, you know and had bought a new car actually around that time too. And we found ourselves three fourths of a million dollars in debt, if you can believe that. I don’t know how that happened. Well, I do know how that happened. I had $237,000 in student loans, even after making payments in residency, and I had about 335 and house loan 40,000 and car loans and 130,000 per rental property that we had. So three, three fourths of a million dollars in debt.
Unknown Speaker  4:57
And you had mentioned that before. You said you had two houses. So you just finished residency and had already accumulated two houses. How does that right? I know
Unknown Speaker  5:12
so well in residency, I bought a house I did what Jim Dolly says don’t do.
Unknown Speaker  5:18
And we actually but we were kind of responsible in that we only use my husband’s income for the financing of it. He was the one that took out a VA loan, because he’s not army. So we did buy a small house that actually that makes a good rental now. It didn’t make sense to sell it because it was bringing in good rental income. Or at that point, we wanted to make it a rental. So so that’s why we kept that.
Unknown Speaker  5:47
In some ways. I think that makes sense. Some might argue that in buying a house for residency, or an apartment, you know, whatever the case may be You you do a significant amount of research before you buy it. Right. Right. And so, you know, there are inefficiencies in the real estate market. And so you might have been able to capitalize on and find what you thought at the time was the best deal around, right? Otherwise you wouldn’t have bought that. And that is, if you’re buying an investment property later on, you’re probably not doing as much research for an investment property as you would have for the home that you’re going to be living in throughout your residency. So I think there are some advantages to if you have the means to buying a home during residency and then keeping it as an investment property.
Unknown Speaker  6:41
Yeah, it turned out to be a good goodbye because it’s, it has almost tripled in value in the last four years, four or five years. Yeah, yeah. We just we bought in a gentrifying neighborhood. It wasn’t a place where, but it but it’s a fabulous place. And I love it so much and, and it’s getting the attention it deserves now and everybody wants to move there. So it’s a it’s a good place and we plan to keep it around for a long time. But moving away from all these decisions I made to get us in debt or we made to get us in debt. I found that, you know, everybody told us we were doing great, we paid everything on time. We didn’t have any credit card debt, but we were spending almost exactly what we were bringing in every month, we were really walking a very fine line and bringing in a significant attending income, we were still living paycheck to paycheck, and that was an eye opening thing. I mean, even as a primary care physician or a hospitalist, you know, people whine about how much how little money we make, but we make A lot of money. I mean, the average average, what’s the average us salary like in the 50? Thousands, right? I mean, the average of primary care physician makes you know, hundred and 80 to $200,000. That’s not that’s not a little amount of money, we should be able to be perfectly happy with that. But I think we set us set each other up, or set ourselves up in our mind to live this expectation of you know, that we have to be this high rolling, Lexus driving, you know, doctor, and if we’re not, then we’re not worth our salt. You know, and this is, and that’s what, that’s what society sells to us. And that’s what, that’s what everybody tells us we should be. But it doesn’t have to be that way. We don’t have to. That’s what I discovered what when we when we went through this journey when we were so stretched, we were so unhappy because we have Everything we had the big house, we had the cars. But we were financially insecure we had no investments are, our net worth was very negative as well like negative $170,000. And that didn’t feel good. And so we said, you know, we got to do something, we’ve got to make a change, especially when I got pregnant and had to take unpaid maternity leave. And then I wrote a post about how how that really messes up your finances, especially when you work in a private on a private company. That that was kind of the turning point. I decided, I remember I was sewing a cover for my couch because I didn’t want to buy one. And I was listening to Jim Dolly’s book, and on audio book and I said, this has to change and we have to do something and I said, I went to my husband. I was like, how about we started dead and you know, try to try it. change our situation somehow. So we both sat down and started off with just kind of listing what we were spending. And that’s actually really hard to do to go through your account and be like, Okay, this is what we spent on food. And this is what we spent on, you know, gas. And thankfully, there are a lot of good resources out there now to help you with that. There are several apps like every dollar or why NAB but and actually the the bank that we use USA actually does break down the kind of in a budget format, all you’re spending. So that’s what we do. And we just transfer that to a spreadsheet. And we just started to go through our big line items of where money was going. And that was in you know, that’s that unsexy word that I don’t want to say, but we came up with a budget and, and really all that is is you’re just taking an account of what’s happening with your money. That’s All and we decided to put a certain amount towards our snowball. So initially we started paying off one car, this our smallest loan. Once that was paid off, we paid off the second car. And there’s a little bit of a drama there because we got in a car wreck and we had to replace the car, but any case, and then once we got things will happen,
Unknown Speaker  11:25
and if you’re living from paycheck to paycheck, then that puts a lot of stress on you and the marriage and the family and and it leads to a lot of unhappy. Exactly, yeah, or that you bought was going to make you happy. And in fact, it does.
Unknown Speaker  11:43
Yeah, it just doesn’t. It’s not there. I know. It’s like it’s the everybody talks about that. All the older people that you talk to otherwise people will tell you know, happiness is not in stuff. Yet somehow. We all keep seeking that And I don’t understand why. It’s the expectations, I think that we’re trying to live up to. But
Unknown Speaker  12:06
you mentioned that before, and I just want to want to explore that a little more. That it’s the the external expectation, you know, we talked about, we have free will, right? We make our own decisions to do what we want to do. But at the same time, these external pressures are influencing your decision making. So it’s really not as free as you think it is yet. We have all these external pressures that that caused us to make these decisions. I did the same thing I finished residency. I spoke to my friends about that know about cars about what kind of car I should get. I ended up getting I was single at the time, so I didn’t need anyone to. There’s no need for car seats or anything like that. I got an Infiniti coupe. Right. But I also lived I lived in Manhattan at the time, but I worked on Long Island and I surf. Oh, so I wanted to be able to serve and I didn’t think you know what, it might be a little more reasonable to get a sedan and I could put a surf rag they don’t make surf tracks for but, but like, this was the sports car that these knucklehead friends of mine told me that I should get because that’s a doctor’s call. Right? Right, which I’ve gotten, you know, I don’t know maybe the Volkswagen mini bus bus or something. But right it was those external influences that ended up making me less happy so I had these you know, significant car payments for a car that didn’t even like because I wasn’t able to do the stuff that I wanted to do. I can someone else told me
Unknown Speaker  13:39
and yeah, and don’t let me get my on my horse. There’s nothing wrong with the coop, you know, there’s nothing wrong with a nice car. And some for some people, it makes them really happy. But the problem is, when you when you finance out your entire lifestyle, and you pay for that as you go, you have no room left to pay yourself. And that’s the problem when you don’t have any room in your budget is to make savings. That’s when stuff becomes a problem. There is and you know, and once once you were financially secure and had a significant amount of savings Sure, Cooper, perfectly fine idea, right? I mean this by other than not being able to put a certain code on it.
Unknown Speaker  14:28
But to that same token, I think, like what you said earlier about stuff doesn’t make us happier and in a car is a big ticket item. So, you know, how much is this car, really like this fancy car versus a reasonably priced car really making you happy? Right? Where does it just become you after a while, your new normal and it actually just doesn’t make you any more happy. It’s still cost you the same amount of money, but it’s not making you as happy when you get used to it as it did when you first got
Unknown Speaker  14:59
and you know, that’s the Key, it’s the what you get used to, is exactly what I found was the biggest driver in savings actually. So the biggest things that make it make a difference in our savings rate is not the stuff that we do occasionally. It’s the stuff that we get used to, like a nice car. After a while it loses its luster. It’s just something you drive to work well, with, what if that’s something that you drove to work wasn’t an you know, the top of the line car, but it got you from point A to point B, you don’t notice it, but you’re saving money every single day because that becomes a habit, or that’s that’s your new normal. And same thing with cooking for example, I heard a post on batch cooking and how that saved us a lot of money. Because in the one change that we had, we decided to make was let’s not buy stuff at work. You know, let’s Not good work and buy lunch and then buy snacks and then buy coffee. How about we take that average $10 a day and just save that. And in order to make that happen, I cook a bunch of food on Sunday, and I save it in our fridge. And we just grab a container and head out to work and take a few snacks with us. And that $10 a day, five days a week, 52 weeks in a year saves us 20 $600 a year, which doesn’t feel like that big of a deal anymore. You know, that’s just our new normal, but that 20 $600 a year invested over a 30 year working career
Unknown Speaker  16:42
with compounded interest yields $260,000 in savings in addition to all of the CO pays and medications fees that you’re going to avoid, because you’ve now cooked for yourself. Evidently what you’re going to cook is healthier. you’re avoiding getting the metabolic soup.
Unknown Speaker  17:02
And that’s right. Yeah, I’m putting myself out of business. It’s okay.
Unknown Speaker  17:08
Yeah, absolutely. That’s, yeah, you make yourself healthier. I usually eat while I’m working while I’m charging so that I don’t really get super hungry, which is great. And then I can use my lunch break to actually go outside or workout. It just makes my life so much better. That small change that became a habit became this huge driving force and saving money and being happier. And it doesn’t feel like a burden. And that was really kind of my limiting thought. You know, initially, when I was a resident, I didn’t have much of an income but I spent all this money on eating lunch and going out and stuff still and didn’t realize where that money was going. But now that I cook, and I don’t spend Money it just it makes me happier it’s insane that it makes me happier but it does you know
Unknown Speaker  18:07
Well it sounds like it’s just it’s fulfilling yes it is right yeah it’s not it’s me you know like you said you get used to driving the car, the car whether it’s the nicer car or the not so nice car or the last night but it you know, making those payments on your loans or, you know, filling your 401k or buying your first rental property. I don’t think that satisfaction ever gets old.
Unknown Speaker  18:35
Right? Whatever. That satisfaction of seeing the number take down is insane. Like it’s so fun. We I made this this jar of macaroni cheese to visually depict our little my loan. And and I i know i was like how because when you’re making payments on these two loans, it feels like this doesn’t go anywhere like the principal does not come down right? I mean it just seems to be there and like forever so I wanted to kind of visually see some change. I didn’t think you’d be that huge. Over a small amount of time. But just have we have this jar of macaroni is on top of this cabinet that’s very visible in my living room. And I see it every day. And
Unknown Speaker  19:24
what macaroni represent
Unknown Speaker  19:26
one macaroni is $1,000 of loan. And so I put it put in there enough macaroni to cover the loan principal and also the expected amount of interest that I was I was going to pay on this loan if I took the seven years so I refinanced in January with sofa and I refinance $208,000 and so I put in that plus the expected amount of interest I was supposed to pay and so we every month we take out the macaroni cheese that we paid and Miley Mr. loves doing it. In fact, he begged me yesterday, even though it’s not loan payment day yet, he begged me to take out the macaroni cheese for this month’s payment. So
Unknown Speaker  20:12
it’s a valuable lesson for him. It’s satisfying to him that you’re reaping
Unknown Speaker  20:17
it is yeah, we make it a big deal. we cheer and stuff, you know. And it’s funny because like he’s three years old, by the way, and and we were like running the other day, and he sees a house and he goes, Mommy, I like that house. Like, yeah, you know, that’s a nice house. He goes, how about we buy that house once our macaroni are done?
Unknown Speaker  20:36
You just say that.
Unknown Speaker  20:39
I love it.
Unknown Speaker  20:40
Yeah, gets it.
Unknown Speaker  20:41
Yeah, he gets it. So anyway, we started off in January at $208,000. And this month in October, we’re going to be at 85 only that, yeah, we we made 100 and what 35 right. doing that. Yeah, thousand dollars of payment this year already. It’s insane. I don’t know how that I mean, I know that’s happening, but it’s insane to see it move that much. And all it took was just making it a priority. And well, then we made some huge changes.
Unknown Speaker  21:19
Let’s talk about that. Right. Yeah, let’s talk about we talked about the car, we talked about the food. But there was one big change that ended up making a huge difference in your life in your, in your repayment. Right, right.
Unknown Speaker  21:32
And this was like the biggest thing. So you know how everybody tells you live like a resident, or at least Jim Dolly tells you live like a resident for another couple of years after after you graduate, and then you can pay off your debt really fast. Well, you know, I read this, I read this book. Two years after I’d already been attending and inflator a lifestyle, and my husband and I talked about It and we went through some big decisions. And he said, Okay, so first of all, we wanted to move because of several different reasons. But he wanted to go back to his hometown and upstate New York. And so we said, okay, we’re going to move and what are we going to do when we get there? And thankfully, I post this question to this really smart group of females on Facebook, physician women, finance and everybody there and there’s I’m so grateful for them because they I’ve actually run most of this these decisions decisions by them and they’ve guided me correctly. That you know, there is Lisa rent when you get there and and and figure out where you want to live. And so that’s what we did. We rented and we rented a small house. So we basically ended up deflating our lifestyle from the attending, attending lifestyle to a resident lifestyle, which, initially when we thought about it, when we’re looking at houses, it was a little depressing to look at these small houses when we were used to living in big one. But, but that was the most painful part, honestly. Because once we got there, we moved into this smaller house unpacked, the house was right next to the hospital, I could walk there, there was a backyard and a basement like we had everything we needed. And honestly, not a huge difference, not a huge difference in our life at all. My In fact, my happiness was a lot higher. I blessed a clean, less to maintain, and it was a rental so that we don’t have we didn’t have a bunch of unexpected expenses, which when we had when we own the house, down south, which is where we moved from that house, you know, had hurricane damage every year. So it actually turned out to be really good for us. So we deflated our lifestyle. And that was the big thing. You know, mortgage or rent is such a huge ticket item. If you can cut that down, you’ve really can make huge, huge, huge progress. And what I really wanted to get out there was it’s never too late, you know, if you’re willing to make a change, and take that little bit of a, I don’t know, ego head and, and deflate just for a little bit. You can get these loans paid off really, really fast. And in that makes such a huge difference. I think a lot of physician burnout is feeling like they’re stuck, you know, feeling like they’re stuck with this huge mortgage and a huge loan payment, and there’s no other job we can do that can really make us let us afford all of that. Would you agree badly?
Unknown Speaker  24:55
Well, I think one issue thankfully your house didn’t depreciate. Right, chill. So if your house had depreciated, if you had bought it in 2005 Mm hmm. Trying to sell it in 2009 Yeah, I think would have been your kind of stuck. Right. I think there are situations in which it would be much more challenging to to get yourself out of that situation. Absolutely. Yeah. Thankfully you were able to, to leave that situation without such a major financial it know, certainly there are things like closing costs and that you just have to just have to eat it. Right. But right, in your situation, it sounds like your biggest barrier was was mental and once you were able to get past that idea of having to give away this lifestyle that you thought you were giving up, right, that actually moving in, you’re fine. It wasn’t as painful as uncomfortable in any means. That you thought it was going to be. It was just the idea in your head, right?
Unknown Speaker  26:05
That was the limiting thing. Exactly. Yeah, it’s once we deflated. Honestly, we actually had a small rental next to the hospital and then I changed the primary care. We actually ended up not inflating, not buying, we’re like we’re making such great progress on the loans. We wanted to just keep renting so that we didn’t have unexpected costs, and we found actually a cheaper house, but uh, and we moved there. So that’s where we are now and seriously, like, as far as, as far as happiness goes, we’re pretty pretty, you know, at peak right now. Historically speaking, for me, you know, it’s, it’s the big ticket items, the house and the cars and then the daily habits, the spending habits That you do thoughtlessly throughout your throughout the day that don’t actually add anything to your life or your, the quality of your living. Those are the things that make the biggest difference when you when you want to save money. So you
Unknown Speaker  27:12
mentioned creating that, that budget, right? Yeah. And I think my wife and I put together a budget A while ago, and it was fairly simple just because we use credit cards for everything. Uh huh. Credit cards for everything. You have a paper trail, right? You can just go through the last few months of spending. Yeah. And find out where you’re where you’re spending that money. So do you remember where those other issues were that you were able to adjust without significant change in quality of life?
Unknown Speaker  27:44
Yeah, so yeah, food was a big one. Um, groceries. You know, groceries, I love cooking, and I love good ingredients. And I would spend way too much money, groceries shopping. And that was a hard thing to cut for me. But it actually, again, just finding the more efficient ways of doing things rather than cutting down on quality instead of shopping at Whole Foods, now I shop at Walmart. But it’s actually really good for me because Walmart has a pickup service and I have two toddlers. So I can just order my food online and go park in a spot and somebody brings the groceries out to me and I don’t have to take the kids out of the car seat. And so they just load up my car and off I go and it’s like 10 minutes. Yeah, and it really it cut my weekly grocery budget down from 200 or 300 to 80 $200 you know, every week which is insane, but We still like invest in good produce, I’ll still go to farmers markets and we have a lot of farms around where we live. So we buy a lot of our fresh produce from there. And there’s actually also a milk delivery service which is so awesome i love it. But it’s you know, so we get we get good dairy as well.
Unknown Speaker  29:19
That sounds so rural.
Unknown Speaker  29:24
You have a milkman
Unknown Speaker  29:26
man
Unknown Speaker  29:29
it’s pretty awesome.
Unknown Speaker  29:32
So I mean, your your, your blog isn’t a cooking blog, but no sin that is such a big ticket item and so important for really for health as well. For those who aren’t so maybe not interested or they don’t see themselves as so good at cooking. Do you have any quick tips for four people?
Unknown Speaker  29:56
Yeah. Ok. So the instant pot is a necessity
Unknown Speaker  30:03
is that so we use a crock pot we use a slow cooker is that different?
Unknown Speaker  30:08
Yeah, it’s so the crock pot. It’s kind of it’s a similar size and shape then some pot is but the crock pot only has one function, it’s slow cooks. The instant pot can slow cook, but it can also fast cook it can pressure cook. And so it really cuts down on the cooking time. It also has a salty function so you can kind of brown whatever you need to brown and then put the liquids in and let it pressurize and cook in that. And it has a microprocessor I think so that it actually adjust the cooking time to what you put in it and it has like so you say you’re cooking chicken, you just throw chicken in there with whatever spices or some salsa or whatever, and close it and just hit poultry. And it’ll come to pressure to what exactly what it needs. It’ll time it and then it’ll count down and I It’ll be done. It’ll be Batu and if you’re not quite ready for it yet, it’ll keep it warm until you open the pot so you could just put something in there you know do whatever you need to do and come back to it and understand it’s pretty amazing.
Unknown Speaker  31:15
I love it now I want to go out and buy it which is complete anathema to what we’re talking about here which is not buying more.
Unknown Speaker  31:23
I know. Yeah, that really it took me a little while it took me several months stuff like thinking and like do I really need this and but I gotta say that was definitely a value add in my life. In the end in the end it’s a it was a good Yeah, you know, actually a really good way to track the price of something. And I picked this up on choose FI podcast, it’s camel, camel, camel.com ca MEL, camel, camel, camel calm and you can, you can just plug in into the pot and you can see where the price has been historically and where Compared to that to say it’s like median right now versus like at the lowest it’s ever been you probably should buy it now you know,
Unknown Speaker  32:06
another money saving tip from the frugal physician. Yes
Unknown Speaker  32:09
sir. I use it all the time for stuff like this where I’m like, I don’t know I’m going to kind of think on this. So you can actually create an alert to so you can just put that in and I’ll email you when it reaches like a point where it’s you know, good time to buy.
Unknown Speaker  32:25
camel, camel, camel, camel, camel camel, that’s it. We should be getting reimbursed for these plugs. Really? I know. He’s gotten a bunch of plugs today. camel camel calm was getting some plugs.
Unknown Speaker  32:36
I know I mean it. These are things that have made you know made a difference in my life. So I don’t feel bad sharing them.
Unknown Speaker  32:43
Then you feel less you feel less guilty about the purchase. Right? There you go. You’ve gotten the best deal. So you’re married two kids, right? How did you get on the same page as your spouse because I think that is all So a barrier to some people, right? Because what you might have is one spouse spends a lot more than the other. And so if you’re the one who wants to be frugal, but the other person is spending, you might think, oh, screw it. They’re spending, I’m just going to spend or you don’t spend, and then it starts building some resentment. So first, did you guys start off on the same page? And if you didn’t, how did you arrive there?
Unknown Speaker  33:29
Yeah, that’s a very good question. Um, initially, when I started working, I was the primary earner the sole owner, my husband decided to stay home and take care of our newborn, which was such a huge thing for us, I mean, for our firstborn, but it was really difficult on our marriage because I was doing all learning and then I was doing all the money management, and I’ve kind of felt alone in that and so on. What it really took was us sitting down and dreaming together, talking about what do we want? You know, like, what do we what are our goals with our money? Like, where do we want to end up? Because when we, when I found myself in this place where I was really unhappy, we kind of sat down, we talked about it and, and you know, and I said, you know, but five year plan 10 year plan, like, you know, I want to be when I have made it, I want to be, I want to own a vineyard on a beach.
Unknown Speaker  34:36
And I want to have a jazz club in it.
Unknown Speaker  34:39
And I want to have a restaurant.
Unknown Speaker  34:43
And, and that’s my why, you know, that’s what that’s where I want to end up and for him. It’s his Why is a little different. But, um, but we had to come up with this, like, what are we going to do? He wants a brewery in the vineyard.
Unknown Speaker  35:00
Talking about,
Unknown Speaker  35:00
but, uh, but so we kind of came up with, okay, where do we want to be? What’s our goal?
Unknown Speaker  35:07
And then from that, you know, we we went to Okay, how do we make that happen? Well certainly we can’t make it happen if we carry a lot of this debt and just live paycheck to paycheck that’s not going to happen. So So then we started the debt payoff thing the debt snowball. And and it was actually the snowball was actually his idea. And he had heard about it. So then we sat down with the spreadsheet. And really, the spreadsheet is kind of key, because every month we sit down at the end of every month and sometimes he drags his feet will definitely say that, but we’ll sit down and we’ll go through our budget together. And we’ll go through our expected expenses. And you know, a lot of times you catch things like what did they charge you For that, or what did that payment go up? You know, and we’ll find things that we need to fix or make phone calls about and then cut that out. And, and, you know, and we, at the end of every month kind of re center on that dream, you know, we center on look at how much progress we’re making. And this is amazing and we’re so proud of us, you know, and, and it brings us together.
Unknown Speaker  36:24
It’s really important to have monthly meetings.
Unknown Speaker  36:27
Yeah, column budget dates. He loves that.
Unknown Speaker  36:32
Yeah, so every month, on the 30th 31st of every month, we sit down with a glass of wine and, and you know, and just and go through the nitty gritty of the numbers, and a beer. Oh, yeah. He actually know is more of a bourbon guy.
Unknown Speaker  36:49
There actually is a physician owned, or at least he started a brewery on Long Island. No, geologists. Yep. It’s called the Great South Bay brewery. Okay. Favorite Long Island brewery. So, the dream the dream is possible
Unknown Speaker  37:03
haha awesome
Unknown Speaker  37:06
jazz club in it. But
Unknown Speaker  37:09
that is a very real dream. So is there anything else that you would like to share with our listeners advice for becoming more frugal getting past those misconceptions about what it takes to be more frugal?
Unknown Speaker  37:27
Anything else that you think we didn’t discuss today that we should?
Unknown Speaker  37:30
Yeah, the biggest thing I just wanted to share with my colleagues and people listening. So it’s just it’s just never it’s never too late. You can if you make it a priority, get out of debt. It’s completely possible. There are a lot of people out there talking about it. There’s a huge community of people talking about getting out of debt and becoming financially independent and Really all what you have to do is kind of come up with your priorities, what’s important to you. For me, my priority was my family, my time, and most And finally, my freedom, my the freedom to be able to do what I want. Because once I was able to, once I’m able to get out of debt, I feel like I can finally more freely advocate for my patients do what I think is right without having the fear of someone telling me I might lose my job, you know, I want to be in that place where that’s not an issue anymore, that I can be a better doctor because I am not in debt, and I don’t need my paycheck. You know, and I can do without it. That’s that’s kind of my goal. And I think that can free a lot of people from the unhappiness that medicine can sometimes bring. It really doesn’t take all that Much you don’t have to work a ton of shifts, or lose time with your family. If you’re willing to make just a few changes in your lifestyle, in your everyday habits, you can make some significant
Unknown Speaker  39:14
progress and do your best to shed yourself over the expectations of others. And just figure out what’s important to you think that irrespective of those people and try and meet those goals, rather than those external pressures, which I think was a huge, huge point that you made earlier.
Unknown Speaker  39:33
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You gotta find what makes you happy.
Unknown Speaker  39:39
So, where can people find you if they want to learn more about batch cooking and camel, camel camel, latest blog posts, how you can find the most delicious yet frugally chosen wines.
Unknown Speaker  39:53
Yeah, that’s at WWW dot the frugal position.com or You can follow me at Twitter at frugal physician or on Facebook at football physician,
Unknown Speaker  40:05
well, frugal physician, I have to say very informative. And thank you for coming on today. It has been a pleasure.
Unknown Speaker  40:12
Thank you so much for having me.
Unknown Speaker  40:16
That was Dr. Bradley Block at the physicians guide to doctoring. Find all previous episodes on iTunes, Stitcher, Google podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and write us a review. You can also visit us on facebook@facebook.com slash physicians guide to doctoring. If you are interested in being a guest or have a question for a prior guest send a message or post a comment.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai